College Football Kickoff!

[Gunz]

Nice pic...

Stoops pulls that shit with Baylor, he's just whoring it up for BCS computer poll points.  He's done it all year to every opponent and he's been doing it for a few years now. 

That's a bullshit statement. Look at the 3rd and 4th quarter stats for OU. They drop way down in 3rd and really really down in points in the 4th. Stoops got bitched at a few years back for running up the score and has since tried to stop. Why in the hell would he throw in his complete 2nd string to finish the game, almost evry game? Click on the scores of the games and it'll show you. Here http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/clubhouse?teamId=201 What would you have them do, not come back at halftime? Stoops is an extremely classy guy. He always gives credit where credit is due, praises his team and fans, shows respect, never looses his cool, and always has something positive to say about his opponent before and after the game.

[Mad Dog]

I have looked at the scores, case in point the score I posted for last year's baylor game.  Bradford wasn't taken out of last saturday's game until the lead was more than 50 points.  He's routinely been in late in the 3rd quarter this season despite scoring more than 50 points in most of the games, never within fewer than 3-4 td of the opponent in those games.

Now if you want bullshit we can always discuss the Cincinnati game.

[Flynbyu]

I have looked at the scores, case in point the score I posted for last year's baylor game.  Bradford wasn't taken out of last saturday's game until the lead was more than 50 points.  He's routinely been in late in the 3rd quarter this season despite scoring more than 50 points in most of the games, never within fewer than 3-4 td of the opponent in those games.

Now if you want bullshit we can always discuss the Cincinnati game.

Stoops has pulled Bradford in the second quarter against Chattanooga, third quarter against Washington, third quarter against TCU, begining of the fourth quarter at Baylor, end of the third quarter against Nebraska, end of the third quarter against Texas A&M, and mid fourth against Texas Tech.

Tressell played Pryor into the fourth quarter against Youngstown State, Michigan State, and  Northwestern. Tressell pulled Pryor during the Michigan game in the fourth quarter.

Florida coach Meyer played three quarterbacks against Hawaii, pulled Tebow in the third against Kentucky, early in the fourth against Georgia, late third quarter against Vanderbilt, early fourth quarter against South Carolina, and early in the fourth against Citadel.

If you are comparing Stoops to Meyer, Florida has outscored opponents 511-132 through 11 games with two games to go (Includes SEC Championship game). That's a 34 point average margin of victory. Oklahoma has outscored opponents 579-257 this year with one game to go. That's only a 29 point margin of victory per opponent. Bradford has been pulled seven times total, five times in the third quarter alone due to lopsided victories. Tressell has left the starter in much longer than Stoops and Meyer has, probably because Ohio State has only outscored opponents 338-157, which is a 15 point margin of victory.

~Brian

[Mad Dog]

Tressel has left the starter in because he's TRUE FRESHMAN and the former backup quarterback, for whom Tressel dramatically scaled down the offensive playbook to put in the game.  He's only been allowed to make a real pass the last 3 weeks.  Bradford isn't in need of experience nor does he need to build confidence going against a defense that's obviously not up to the task.  I don't even know who the heck backs Pryor up, I assume Boeckman is the backup and he's a 5th year senior who doesn't need any additional touches in the last game of the regular season.

I'm not sitting here saying that OSU is a better team or that their offense is more potent.  The 15 point margin of victory (approximately half of OK's) actually helps me make the point that Stoops runs up the scores unnecessarily.  And the proof that Pryor needs the practice is in the low margins of victory, obviously he's not yet able to run big enough scores up to allow a backup qb to come in....plus he still needs the touches as true freshman.

And the only reason Urban Meyer got brought up was because Aaron mentioned their game against Citadel, and I made the point that while Meyer isn't exactly a saint either he was rotating in a defensive player that wasn't even on the depth chart at running back so IMO he wasn't as bad as Stoops was in the TT game.

[Flynbyu]

So Oklahoma and Florida are both guilty of scoring lots of points?

I think there are some cases where I would have pulled starters earlier to keep them from getting injured, but even pulling the starters Oklahoma still puts points on the board regardless. When you hang half a hundred by the half, who's to blame? The coaching staff? The players executing the play?

Oklahoma will rotate a few starters in and out on offense, mainly recievers. Last week, five touchdowns were scored on the ground running the ball. Three of Oklahoma's recievers only caught one pass each, and all three took them to the house by run after catch.

Johnson, one catch, 66 yards, TD.
Iglesias one catch, 28 yards TD.
Broyles, one catch 28 yards TD.
Gresham (tight end) had 5 catches for 95 yards an a TD.
Murray (RB) came out of the backfield for 4 catches. On those for he totalled 71 yards. He had an additional 125 yards on 18 carries, two TD's.
Brown (RB) had 108 yards on 21 carries, 3 TD's

Texas Tech's Harrell was 33-55, 361 yards, 3 TD's and an INT.
OU's Bradford was only 14-19, 304 yards, 4 TD's.

Sounds like Oklahoma isn't guilty of running the score up, they were just more efficient with the ball.

~Brian

[Mad Dog]

Of course they're more efficient with the ball, especially when the starters stay in so long.  If there were more backups in the game then the efficiency would drop but OK would still win handsomely.  With the efficiency OK has they shouldn't need their starting QB in the game in the 4th quarter.

[Krandall]

Go Georgia

[Flynbyu]

Of course they're more efficient with the ball, especially when the starters stay in so long.  If there were more backups in the game then the efficiency would drop but OK would still win handsomely.  With the efficiency OK has they shouldn't need their starting QB in the game in the 4th quarter.

More efficient because they leave their starters in longer? Ha! Ha!

Riddle me this: How many times has Tressell pulled starters at the half or in the third quarter this year because of their efficiency?

Stoops has pulled Bradford and 70-75% (includes offensive lineman) of the rest of the starting offense and 60% of the starting defense in most of the lopsided games (6 games). I know for a fact Bradford has been pulled seven times total, and five times before the third quarter has expired and three times at halftime. OU subs recievers in with the plays and usually you'll see three starters in with the second team offense, and three to five starters in on defense.

Tressell is guilty as well, but this year he didn't have the luxury of pulling starters due to the number of close games Ohio State had due to lack of offense. Wells was a big part of their offense, and when he was out it really hurt them. I don't have an issue with teams leaving starters on the field when there is a big lead, as long as it's not the whole crew.

~Brian

[Gunz]

Now if you want bullshit we can always discuss the Cincinnati game.

I can't really comment on that one. I didn't watch it. All I have is the stats and highlites. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=282500201

[Mad Dog]

Of course they're more efficient with the ball, especially when the starters stay in so long.  If there were more backups in the game then the efficiency would drop but OK would still win handsomely.  With the efficiency OK has they shouldn't need their starting QB in the game in the 4th quarter.

More efficient because they leave their starters in longer? Ha! Ha!

Riddle me this: How many times has Tressell pulled starters at the half or in the third quarter this year because of their efficiency?

Stoops has pulled Bradford and 70-75% (includes offensive lineman) of the rest of the starting offense and 60% of the starting defense in most of the lopsided games (6 games). I know for a fact Bradford has been pulled seven times total, and five times before the third quarter has expired and three times at halftime. OU subs recievers in with the plays and usually you'll see three starters in with the second team offense, and three to five starters in on defense.

Tressell is guilty as well, but this year he didn't have the luxury of pulling starters due to the number of close games Ohio State had due to lack of offense. Wells was a big part of their offense, and when he was out it really hurt them. I don't have an issue with teams leaving starters on the field when there is a big lead, as long as it's not the whole crew.

~Brian

Walk with me here Brian;

Starting players are, on average, more efficient than their backups.  This is part of the reason they are the starters.

That means a given team's offense is more efficient with starters than with backups. 

So, the overall efficiency of any team's offense will be greater for every unit of time that the starters are in vs if the backups were in.

But since OK's efficiency appears to be much greater than the ability of their opponents then OK could stand to pull some of the starters a little faster.  The point being that since the starters are so efficient they should be able to rotate out a little more often without endangering the outcome of the game.


Brian I think OK's coach has repeatedly shown what I deem to be less than admirable (read poor) sportsmanship by routinely positioning OK to run up scores on teams of every caliber to improve the team's BCS computer averages.  I don't really care if you agree because it's pretty clear to me.



I'm still not sure what this has to do with Tressell, or even what that first question about him was.  I didn't have a problem with Tressell leaving a true freshman QB in, I didn't see the justification for Stoops leaving Bradford in last week.  If you're trying to hurt or embarrass me by bringing up OSU let me be the first to say that they haven't been a good team this year (especially the first 3/4 of the season) and don't have the talent in place/developed to play at the same kind of offensive level that Big 12 teams have shown this season.  After all they've only racked up 40 pts or more 4 times, where as OK has 4 60pt games in a row.

[Gunz]

Starting players are, on average, more efficient than their backups.  This is part of the reason they are the starters.

That means a given team's offense is more efficient with starters than with backups. 

So, the overall efficiency of any team's offense will be greater for every unit of time that the starters are in vs if the backups were in.

True

But since OK's efficiency appears to be much greater than the ability of their opponents then OK could stand to pull some of the starters a little faster.  The point being that since the starters are so efficient they should be able to rotate out a little more often without endangering the outcome of the game.

They do... every game they play. Name 5 teams that play their 2nd string as much as Stoops does? Would it be better for you if they started playing 2nd and 3rd string by halftime?

Brian I think OK's coach has repeatedly shown what I deem to be less than admirable (read poor) sportsmanship by routinely positioning OK to run up scores on teams of every caliber to improve the team's BCS computer averages.  I don't really care if you agree because it's pretty clear to me.

I know its your opinion, but what a bullshit statement. Nothing is further from the truth.

[Mad Dog]

But since OK's efficiency appears to be much greater than the ability of their opponents then OK could stand to pull some of the starters a little faster.  The point being that since the starters are so efficient they should be able to rotate out a little more often without endangering the outcome of the game.

They do... every game they play. Name 5 teams that play their 2nd string as much as Stoops does? Would it be better for you if they started playing 2nd and 3rd string by halftime?

I didn't say Stoops didn't play them, but seeing Bradford throwing TD passes in the 4th quarter of the TT game tells me Stoops could pull him more often.  And of course they're going to play their backups more than most teams, they typically win by huge margins which should allow them to put other players in.

Brian I think OK's coach has repeatedly shown what I deem to be less than admirable (read poor) sportsmanship by routinely positioning OK to run up scores on teams of every caliber to improve the team's BCS computer averages.  I don't really care if you agree because it's pretty clear to me.

I know its your opinion, but what a bullshit statement. Nothing is further from the truth.

Since you seem to keep telling me to take a look at ESPN's website, perhaps you have already seen this quote from Stoops following last week's game when he was asked about how he would fare in the BCS:

"I think we have a really good chance," Oklahoma coach Bob Stoops said. "You look at what we've done the last two weeks. We've played the No. 2 team in the country and won by 44. We just played the [No. 12] team in the country in their own place, where no one else has beat them, and won by 20.

"Usually it's what you're doing at the end of the year, and we have finished the year really pretty strong."

I don't think Stoops ran up the score on OK St, he was just trying to pull out the win.  But to think he's wasn't running up the score in the TT game is a laugh, especially with how proud he seems to be of it and how much significance he and the BCS computers put on margins of victory.

[Flynbyu]

"But since OK's efficiency appears to be much greater than the ability of their opponents then OK could stand to pull some of the starters a little faster.  The point being that since the starters are so efficient they should be able to rotate out a little more often without endangering the outcome of the game."

As I said in a previous post, Stoops has pulled Bradford seven times this season. I would like to see evidence of any other program that has pulled their starter seven times before the end of the game, five times before the third quarter has expired and three times at halftime this year. If you can show me any team in the nation or in the same division that has pulled their starters more than that, then I'll consider your complaint valid.

I don't know why you are so critical of Stoops pulling starters. That's why I made reference to Tressell not pulling his starters. Tressell had a four blowouts and didn't pull starters, at the half, or third quarter. So why aren't you critical of Ohio State's program? Because you pull for them?

Oh, and what's with Ohio State declaring themselves Big Ten champions?

http://www.ebuckeye.com/COLLEGE_Ohio_State_Buckeyes/browse/source/overture-ohio-state-big-10-champs-football-rose-bowl

I thought Penn State was the Big Ten Champion since they will be headed to the Rose Bowl to face USC.

~Brian

[Mad Dog]

"But since OK's efficiency appears to be much greater than the ability of their opponents then OK could stand to pull some of the starters a little faster.  The point being that since the starters are so efficient they should be able to rotate out a little more often without endangering the outcome of the game."

As I said in a previous post, Stoops has pulled Bradford seven times this season. I would like to see evidence of any other program that has pulled their starter seven times before the end of the game, five times before the third quarter has expired and three times at halftime this year. If you can show me any team in the nation or in the same division that has pulled their starters more than that, then I'll consider your complaint valid.

I don't know why you are so critical of Stoops pulling starters. That's why I made reference to Tressell not pulling his starters. Tressell had a four blowouts and didn't pull starters, at the half, or third quarter. So why aren't you critical of Ohio State's program? Because you pull for them?

Oh, and what's with Ohio State declaring themselves Big Ten champions?

http://www.ebuckeye.com/COLLEGE_Ohio_State_Buckeyes/browse/source/overture-ohio-state-big-10-champs-football-rose-bowl

I thought Penn State was the Big Ten Champion since they will be headed to the Rose Bowl to face USC.

~Brian

You want to go down the OSU road here we go.  Below are the 4 blowouts;

1st: 43-0 vs youngstown state - first game of the season against a I-AA opponent.  Kicker scores 16 of the points and OSU pulls the starting quarterback in the 3rd quarter, inserting a true freshman.  It was a beating against an FCS school, it's what they're there for and Tressell put in the backups.

2nd: 45-7 at Michigan State - OSU did not score an offensive touchdown in the 2nd half, both TD came from the defense and there was one field goal in the fourth quarter.  Pryor stayed in but only 2 passes in the second half (both incomplete).  Obviously with only 2 attempts in 30 minutes of football Tressell was not trying to use the passing game to rack up the score.

3rd: 45-10 at Northwestern - This is the game Tressell got criticized in the press about which I referenced earlier in our discussion.  Tressell didn't need to pull the fake punt for a first down and he rightly got flak for it.  But the starting QB and RB were still pulled out in the 4th quarter and the score in the 3rd quarter was 24-10, not exactly an insurmountable lead.

4th: 42-7 vs Michigan - Starting quarterback throws 5 completions and scores 2 TD.  Backup quarterback (a 5th year senior) comes in and throws a TD in the 4th quarter.  The #2 running back scores 2 of the 4 TD  and #1 and #2 RB are pulled in the 4th quarter.  They even threw in one back at the end who got his first carry of the season.

OSU has also put in the backup QB 7 times this season, over the course of 12 games.  The starting OSU QB in those 4 games had 19 attempts or fewer, Bradford's fewest attempts all season came against TT, where he was still throwing TD passes in the 4th quarter.

So OSU is less efficient and less flashy in their scoring but have still managed to replace their starting QB before the end of the game as many times as Oklahoma, who has routinely decimated their opponents well before the 4th quarter.  Combine that with the margins of victory in the game and Stoops' comments about the BCS and that's why he deserves more flak than Tressell on the subject.



OSU has a share of the Big 10 championship this year because of their record which is equal in the conference with Penn State.  The tie breaker structure for BCS bowls does not apply to conference championships.

http://bigten.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/112408aad.html

[Colorado700R]

I think all of this is still the nature of the beasts when you have the Bullshit Championship Series  (BCS).  When you get "Style" points, and leave it to a popularity system, the ethics of the game are subjective to the goals of the program.

Aaron