Paddle Tire Rollout/paddle count/gearing/ swingarm length...

[Colorado700R]

How do you guys match a rollout/paddle count/gearing/ and swing arm length to your bikes??

Is it all trial and error, or is there a proper method to the madness??

I'm sure different conditions affect your set-up....Like type of sand, type of race, Altitude (300ft, hillshots, flat 1/8th or more) right?


Also, it seems that the same "size" tires may infact are completely different (IE Troy's 7 paddle SLS hauler 22" are way taller than my 7 paddle 22" haulers)

I think there's allot of folks trying to figure out what works best for them, just trying to get some input for folks before they buy the wrong tires for their applications.

Aaron

[jstev]

Aron I have been reading on this till my eyes bleed.  I want to get a set of hill tires for the St A's trip. 
Are troys tires on a more narrow wheel?  Also even on the same size carcase there are plenty of diff. rollout sizes. 

[Colorado700R]

Aron I have been reading on this till my eyes bleed.  I want to get a set of hill tires for the St A's trip.  
Are troys tires on a more narrow wheel?  Also even on the same size carcase there are plenty of diff. rollout sizes.  

I don't think troys wheels are any different (8x8 I believe).   I think it would be very cool if our resident racers would chime in with a guide for starting points

IE

stock-3 mod bikes (38-50HP range)

Hill shooters
6 paddle brat 22's 65" rollout 15/37 gears

300ft
8 paddle SLS 22" haulers 70" rollout 14/38 gears

Flat drag 1/8th or longer

7 paddle SLS 22" haulers 70" rollout 14/38 gears

Basic duning
7 paddle 22" hauler 70" rollout 15/37 gears


and continue the info up into the bigboys HP 90+


Not looking for a Paddle tire bible by no means, but a good archive of starting points for people.

[DL700]

...basicly,
throw tire size out the window and go by ROLL OUT/RO

but to make general tire selection lets go with size for now....
\
  Never over a 7 paddle for a STOCK ARM LENGTH 700.... a 6 works better in some cases for more tire spin off the line

20 in tires suck ... DONT BUY THEM!!!
10 in wheels SUCK... DONT BUY THEM
7 or 8 in wide ONLY
EXTREME's suck.. and are heavy... good for 300 ft...not so good for the hill

8x7 vs 8x8 wheels... the 8x7 is lighter and lets a tire GROW more ....also allows more adjustability with the use of air pressure ....

a 21/12/8 on an 8x7 will be taller then a 22x11x8 on an 8x8...and a LOT lighter

The CARCASS used makes a big difference is actual RO/////


A 21x12x8 7 paddle hauler is good for a bike up to 65 hp on 4-6 in arm....


Most of the time LESS=MORE....
the lower the paddle count the less the tire weighs amd the less it will drag.... (matters more on the hill then flat)



RO vs gearing....

basicly we gear for the hill... pulling peak power rpm near the top and staying off the limiter...staying on a 2-3 shift pattern...this gearinm depends on the hill u run... and tire size...and hp output...for duning pick a gear that doesnt require constant shifting but is still snappy to compliment your bikes power///

[Troy]

My 7 paddles have been good from stock to my 49 horsepower now 

[Gunz]

My 7 paddles have been good from stock to my 49 horsepower now 

49hp? ERMAHGERD! Dude you got to be built to the hilt.....

[Troy]

Oh it is bro, trust me, it's meaner than catshit 

[RaptorRandy]

EXTREME's suck.. and are heavy... good for 300 ft...not so good for the hill

I strongly disagree with this statement.........

On the shorter but steeper hills in Oregon the bead to bead or SLS 12 paddle extremes are the tire of choice for well built big bore stroker 700R.

[Pw383426]

It's really hard to find a "general" set up for bikes all around.

I have always thought tire selection was based more on suspension set up than actually power.

And I also agree with the "less is more" statement. Tons of people over paddle their bikes, over swingarm their bikes, etc etc. The longer swingarm you run= the more tire you're going to need, ergo more weight that's unnecessary, and then you get to fighting with clutch issues.

Guys on +4's and +6 swingarms will roll up to the hill, and alot of times embarass guys with these Mega +10 swingers with 80 rollout tires with 16 cups....

And like Randy is saying, alot depends on the hill. If it's a short 300ft the launch is going to matter alot more than your speed. And then you have hills like Olds or Sand Mtn where Gliders might be the sweet ticket... because the top speed of the hill matters.

The whole finding the right tire and suspension part is the spendiest part of being a faster bike. I know several guys that go through 10 sets of tires until they find "the" set that works for their set up. But if you wanna be fast with what you have, that's just what you gotta spend.

Here's a pic of the pit in Oregon for an Fsa race. Must have been 25 sets of tires, all SLS. Us southerners didn't know what the hill in Oregon was going to want.... but you better believe that the Kenz group was going to bring it with them  Must have made 6 tire changes on Jdog's bike alone to find what seemed like the best set up. All the locals thought it was hilarious bringing a "mountain" of paddle tires lol

[Colorado700R]

Great info so far guys..

I think posting up what you have had success with and where is important to. So I'll sticky this thread to capture the info for a reference.

I've been very happy with my 7 paddle 22" haulers at walden as a three mod. 14/38 gears (Stock)  and stock swing arm.

Now that my motor is built I need a swingarm. +4 most likely, so tires will most likly have to change too.

[Quadracers]

Sand conditions differ from location to location, beach located riding areas (Pismo, Coos Bay) tend to require more tire than say Glamis, Dumont, or Sand Mountain. It has been my experience that about the time you rule out a tire you find a situation that you need it, so never say never when it comes to racing.

HP and gearing play a major part in set up, so here are some guidelines when selecting a tire. As stated earlier rollout is a major factor in traction. Rollout is the total circumference of the tire, so if your tire has a 72 on the side, that means with 10 psi in the tire it measures 72" if you were to wrap a tape around it, or it will travel 72" before it completes one full rotaion. If it's a 80 rollout tire then it measures 80" @ 10 psi in total circumference and so on. Rollout is important for both launching and accelerating. The more rollout you have the larger the foot print of the tire touching the sand is. Most think of side width when talking about surface area, but front to rear surface area is much more critical. A 80 rollout 10 paddle Glider will launch harder than say a 70 rollout 10 paddle Hauler/Extreme because there is more surface area. It's all about flotation and how much tire, not how much paddle is touching the sand. You can have 14 paddle extremes in the sand and be the first one to hit oil because they will dig faster, but the key is staying on top and moving forward, the larger rollout provides this for you.

The other advantage rollout provides is the ability for the tire to skinny at high speed and pull the paddles out of the sand. The skinnier the tire gets the less drag you have, the greater the MPH will be. Think about what a NHRA top fuel dragster tire does during there burnout, they get skinny the faster they spin. Skinny rims allow more rollout as do strictly buying larger rollout tires. Drag is created by the paddles themselves, it's not the amount of paddles on the tire that create drag, but the height of the paddle sticking in the sand that will deter MPH while creating more drag. As an example lets imagine 2 sets of tires with the exact same rollout 72. One set has 10 paddle Extremes the other has 10 paddle Gliders. The Extremes will launch harder and run the 1st half of the race stronger while the Gliders will launch slower, but run the second half of the race up to 2 mph faster than the Extremes due to less drag. Speed kills!

Weight is always a factor when racing, but can be an advantage when it comes to rollout. Do larger rollout tires weigh more than smaller tires? Absolutely, but when racing the added weight actually helps the tire to bite sooner and hook before a lighter tire will with more "hook up" due to surface area and weight. The weight is only detrimental in the initial drop of the clutch, because it takes more power to spin 16 lbs than it does 13 lbs. of tire, but from that point forward it is an advantage. It takes very little power to maintain the rotating mass once moving in comparison to initiating the spin.

It's difficult to make tire and gearing recommendations for the majority because everyones builds and set ups are different on top of the sand conditions, but here are a few guidelines. If you are a recreation rider who dunes the majority of the time I would recommend the least amount of paddles as possible on a 70 - 72 rollout tire. This will help the handling and allow the bike to be thrown some body english while still providing adequate traction to climb. To much paddle and the bike will not want to turn.
If your a hill shooter that spends most of your time at the hill I would choose a tire with the most rollout and the least amount of paddle that fits your HP application. The heavier the bike/rider is the less amount of paddles will be needed to hook the bike. The lighter the bike/rider is a higher amount of paddles will be required to launch the bike.

300 ft. racing is all about getting out of the hole, but mph is a tuning tool as well. Normally your mph reflects you 60 ft. times and how well you are coming out of the hole. Faster launch = higher mph, Slower launch = lower mph. It is a helpful indication as to where and how to make tire and gearing adjustments. You have to find the happy medium between launching and mph. OEM frame bikes on gas should go with large rollout tires and 12-14 paddle Extremes. Powers Adder bikes with NOS or Turbo will need 80+ rollout staggerds with 16 - 20 paddle Extremes depending on track conditions.

Gearing is much more complicated and power plays a huge role in what gearing to run. Here are a couple of tips to remember. Normally you want to gear your bike so that it will accelerate through the highest RPM that you are making power at. If you over gear a stock bike it will not pull 5th gear with any rpm because of the lack of power in that rpm range. On a 3 mod bike that might be 6500 rpms, on a race bike maybe 8500 rpms, so gear your bike with your riding style to run in that rpm range as much as possible. If you are a racers you want to gear your bike 1 tooth off the rev limiter as you cross the line. So, if your gearing is 15 x 38 and you just touch the rev limiter as you cross the line, go to 15 x 37. 1 tooth on the front countershaft sprocket = 3 rear teeth. Every 2 points of tire rollout equals 1 tooth on the rear sprocket, If your running 15 x 38 with 72 rollout tires and change to 80 rollout tires, you need to add 4 teeth to run at the same rpm that you were with the 72s. The new gearing would need to be 15 x 42 or 14 x 39 to compensate for the larger diameter tire. Remember going down on the front sprocket size is lower gearing, increasing the teeth is higher/taller gearing. The opposite is true for the rear sprocket, higher/taller gearing is a smaller rear sprocket, lower gearing is more teeth or an overall larger rear spocket.  Also something to remember, for every 1 tooth on the rear spocket that you add or subtract it is equal to approx. 250 rpms up or down on the power band. 1 tooth up or down on the front countershaft sprocket is equal to approx. 750 rpms.

Alot of this has come from trial and error and much of it is never discussed amongst racers. Hope some of you can benefit from this information.

[DL700]

well said TOM!!.....

[tonto13]

Thank You!! Quadracers!

[Krandall]

 

mind has officially blown.

[Colorado700R]

WOW!! Thanks Tom!!!

Karma added !