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Raptor 700 Information => 700 General Discussion => Topic started by: Colorado700R on December 03, 2009, 05:44:25 PM
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How do you guys match a rollout/paddle count/gearing/ and swing arm length to your bikes??
Is it all trial and error, or is there a proper method to the madness??
I'm sure different conditions affect your set-up....Like type of sand, type of race, Altitude (300ft, hillshots, flat 1/8th or more) right?
Also, it seems that the same "size" tires may infact are completely different (IE Troy's 7 paddle SLS hauler 22" are way taller than my 7 paddle 22" haulers)
I think there's allot of folks trying to figure out what works best for them, just trying to get some input for folks before they buy the wrong tires for their applications.
Aaron
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Aron I have been reading on this till my eyes bleed. I want to get a set of hill tires for the St A's trip.
Are troys tires on a more narrow wheel? Also even on the same size carcase there are plenty of diff. rollout sizes.
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Aron I have been reading on this till my eyes bleed. I want to get a set of hill tires for the St A's trip.
Are troys tires on a more narrow wheel? Also even on the same size carcase there are plenty of diff. rollout sizes.
I don't think troys wheels are any different (8x8 I believe). I think it would be very cool if our resident racers would chime in with a guide for starting points
IE
stock-3 mod bikes (38-50HP range)
Hill shooters
6 paddle brat 22's 65" rollout 15/37 gears
300ft
8 paddle SLS 22" haulers 70" rollout 14/38 gears
Flat drag 1/8th or longer
7 paddle SLS 22" haulers 70" rollout 14/38 gears
Basic duning
7 paddle 22" hauler 70" rollout 15/37 gears
and continue the info up into the bigboys HP 90+
Not looking for a Paddle tire bible by no means, but a good archive of starting points for people.
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...basicly,
throw tire size out the window and go by ROLL OUT/RO
but to make general tire selection lets go with size for now....
\
Never over a 7 paddle for a STOCK ARM LENGTH 700.... a 6 works better in some cases for more tire spin off the line
20 in tires suck ... DONT BUY THEM!!!
10 in wheels SUCK... DONT BUY THEM
7 or 8 in wide ONLY
EXTREME's suck.. and are heavy... good for 300 ft...not so good for the hill
8x7 vs 8x8 wheels... the 8x7 is lighter and lets a tire GROW more ....also allows more adjustability with the use of air pressure ....
a 21/12/8 on an 8x7 will be taller then a 22x11x8 on an 8x8...and a LOT lighter
The CARCASS used makes a big difference is actual RO/////
A 21x12x8 7 paddle hauler is good for a bike up to 65 hp on 4-6 in arm....
Most of the time LESS=MORE....
the lower the paddle count the less the tire weighs amd the less it will drag.... (matters more on the hill then flat)
RO vs gearing....
basicly we gear for the hill... pulling peak power rpm near the top and staying off the limiter...staying on a 2-3 shift pattern...this gearinm depends on the hill u run... and tire size...and hp output...for duning pick a gear that doesnt require constant shifting but is still snappy to compliment your bikes power///
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My 7 paddles have been good from stock to my 49 horsepower now :thumbs:
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My 7 paddles have been good from stock to my 49 horsepower now :thumbs:
49hp???? ERMAHGERD! Dude you got to be built to the hilt.....
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Oh it is bro, trust me, it's meaner than catshit :thumbs:
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EXTREME's suck.. and are heavy... good for 300 ft...not so good for the hill
I strongly disagree with this statement.........
On the shorter but steeper hills in Oregon the bead to bead or SLS 12 paddle extremes are the tire of choice for well built big bore stroker 700R.
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It's really hard to find a "general" set up for bikes all around.
I have always thought tire selection was based more on suspension set up than actually power.
And I also agree with the "less is more" statement. Tons of people over paddle their bikes, over swingarm their bikes, etc etc. The longer swingarm you run= the more tire you're going to need, ergo more weight that's unnecessary, and then you get to fighting with clutch issues.
Guys on +4's and +6 swingarms will roll up to the hill, and alot of times embarass guys with these Mega +10 swingers with 80 rollout tires with 16 cups....
And like Randy is saying, alot depends on the hill. If it's a short 300ft the launch is going to matter alot more than your speed. And then you have hills like Olds or Sand Mtn where Gliders might be the sweet ticket... because the top speed of the hill matters.
The whole finding the right tire and suspension part is the spendiest part of being a faster bike. I know several guys that go through 10 sets of tires until they find "the" set that works for their set up. But if you wanna be fast with what you have, that's just what you gotta spend.
Here's a pic of the pit in Oregon for an Fsa race. Must have been 25 sets of tires, all SLS. Us southerners didn't know what the hill in Oregon was going to want.... but you better believe that the Kenz group was going to bring it with them :lol: Must have made 6 tire changes on Jdog's bike alone to find what seemed like the best set up. All the locals thought it was hilarious bringing a "mountain" of paddle tires lol
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd6/pw383426/DSCN0474.jpg)
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Great info so far guys..
I think posting up what you have had success with and where is important to. So I'll sticky this thread to capture the info for a reference.
I've been very happy with my 7 paddle 22" haulers at walden as a three mod. 14/38 gears (Stock) and stock swing arm.
Now that my motor is built I need a swingarm. +4 most likely, so tires will most likly have to change too.
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Sand conditions differ from location to location, beach located riding areas (Pismo, Coos Bay) tend to require more tire than say Glamis, Dumont, or Sand Mountain. It has been my experience that about the time you rule out a tire you find a situation that you need it, so never say never when it comes to racing.
HP and gearing play a major part in set up, so here are some guidelines when selecting a tire. As stated earlier rollout is a major factor in traction. Rollout is the total circumference of the tire, so if your tire has a 72 on the side, that means with 10 psi in the tire it measures 72" if you were to wrap a tape around it, or it will travel 72" before it completes one full rotaion. If it's a 80 rollout tire then it measures 80" @ 10 psi in total circumference and so on. Rollout is important for both launching and accelerating. The more rollout you have the larger the foot print of the tire touching the sand is. Most think of side width when talking about surface area, but front to rear surface area is much more critical. A 80 rollout 10 paddle Glider will launch harder than say a 70 rollout 10 paddle Hauler/Extreme because there is more surface area. It's all about flotation and how much tire, not how much paddle is touching the sand. You can have 14 paddle extremes in the sand and be the first one to hit oil because they will dig faster, but the key is staying on top and moving forward, the larger rollout provides this for you.
The other advantage rollout provides is the ability for the tire to skinny at high speed and pull the paddles out of the sand. The skinnier the tire gets the less drag you have, the greater the MPH will be. Think about what a NHRA top fuel dragster tire does during there burnout, they get skinny the faster they spin. Skinny rims allow more rollout as do strictly buying larger rollout tires. Drag is created by the paddles themselves, it's not the amount of paddles on the tire that create drag, but the height of the paddle sticking in the sand that will deter MPH while creating more drag. As an example lets imagine 2 sets of tires with the exact same rollout 72. One set has 10 paddle Extremes the other has 10 paddle Gliders. The Extremes will launch harder and run the 1st half of the race stronger while the Gliders will launch slower, but run the second half of the race up to 2 mph faster than the Extremes due to less drag. Speed kills!
Weight is always a factor when racing, but can be an advantage when it comes to rollout. Do larger rollout tires weigh more than smaller tires? Absolutely, but when racing the added weight actually helps the tire to bite sooner and hook before a lighter tire will with more "hook up" due to surface area and weight. The weight is only detrimental in the initial drop of the clutch, because it takes more power to spin 16 lbs than it does 13 lbs. of tire, but from that point forward it is an advantage. It takes very little power to maintain the rotating mass once moving in comparison to initiating the spin.
It's difficult to make tire and gearing recommendations for the majority because everyones builds and set ups are different on top of the sand conditions, but here are a few guidelines. If you are a recreation rider who dunes the majority of the time I would recommend the least amount of paddles as possible on a 70 - 72 rollout tire. This will help the handling and allow the bike to be thrown some body english while still providing adequate traction to climb. To much paddle and the bike will not want to turn.
If your a hill shooter that spends most of your time at the hill I would choose a tire with the most rollout and the least amount of paddle that fits your HP application. The heavier the bike/rider is the less amount of paddles will be needed to hook the bike. The lighter the bike/rider is a higher amount of paddles will be required to launch the bike.
300 ft. racing is all about getting out of the hole, but mph is a tuning tool as well. Normally your mph reflects you 60 ft. times and how well you are coming out of the hole. Faster launch = higher mph, Slower launch = lower mph. It is a helpful indication as to where and how to make tire and gearing adjustments. You have to find the happy medium between launching and mph. OEM frame bikes on gas should go with large rollout tires and 12-14 paddle Extremes. Powers Adder bikes with NOS or Turbo will need 80+ rollout staggerds with 16 - 20 paddle Extremes depending on track conditions.
Gearing is much more complicated and power plays a huge role in what gearing to run. Here are a couple of tips to remember. Normally you want to gear your bike so that it will accelerate through the highest RPM that you are making power at. If you over gear a stock bike it will not pull 5th gear with any rpm because of the lack of power in that rpm range. On a 3 mod bike that might be 6500 rpms, on a race bike maybe 8500 rpms, so gear your bike with your riding style to run in that rpm range as much as possible. If you are a racers you want to gear your bike 1 tooth off the rev limiter as you cross the line. So, if your gearing is 15 x 38 and you just touch the rev limiter as you cross the line, go to 15 x 37. 1 tooth on the front countershaft sprocket = 3 rear teeth. Every 2 points of tire rollout equals 1 tooth on the rear sprocket, If your running 15 x 38 with 72 rollout tires and change to 80 rollout tires, you need to add 4 teeth to run at the same rpm that you were with the 72s. The new gearing would need to be 15 x 42 or 14 x 39 to compensate for the larger diameter tire. Remember going down on the front sprocket size is lower gearing, increasing the teeth is higher/taller gearing. The opposite is true for the rear sprocket, higher/taller gearing is a smaller rear sprocket, lower gearing is more teeth or an overall larger rear spocket. Also something to remember, for every 1 tooth on the rear spocket that you add or subtract it is equal to approx. 250 rpms up or down on the power band. 1 tooth up or down on the front countershaft sprocket is equal to approx. 750 rpms.
Alot of this has come from trial and error and much of it is never discussed amongst racers. Hope some of you can benefit from this information.
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well said TOM!!..... :nana:
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Thank You!! Quadracers!
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:jaw:
mind has officially blown.
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WOW!! Thanks Tom!!!
Karma added !
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:jaw:
mind has officially blown.
I was about to say this....
"you ever see that scene in scanners, when they guy's head blows up?" :lol:
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Thanks Guys!
I know it's alot of info to process, if you have questions feel free to ask. Glad to contribute.
Here's a little more info, these are starting points only. Final set up adjustments must be done at the track or destination of your choosing. Don't forget tire pressure is also a key ingredient in completing your set up package. Never disregard a tire until you have played with the pressure. Start at 6 psi and work your way down, you will find the sweet spot somewhere between 3 - 6 psi if you are paddled correctly.
Duner
Raptor) stock - 60 HP, 70 - 72 rollout 7 paddle Hauler 8"x 8" rim, stock - +4" swingarm, 14 x 38 gearing.
Raptor) 60 - 70 HP, 70 - 72 rollout 7 - 8 paddle Hauler 8" x 8" rim, +6" swingarm, 14 - 15 x 38.
Raptor) 70 - 80 HP, 70 - 72 rollout 7 - 9 paddle Hauler 8" x 8" rim, +6" - 8" swingarm, 15 x 38 gearing.
Raptor) 80 - 90 HP, 70 - 72 rollout 7 - 10 paddle Hauler 8" x 8" rim, +8" swingarm, 15 x 38 gearing.
Hillshooter
Raptor) stock - 60 HP, 72 - 74 rollout 7 - 8 paddle Hauler 8" x 7" rim, +4" - 6" swingarm, (8"x 7" rim will give you 1 1/2 more rollout), 14 x 38 gearing.
Raptor) 60 - 70 HP, 72 - 74 rollout 7 - 9 paddle Hauler 8" x 7" rim, +6" swingarm, 15 x 38 gearing.
Raptor) 70 - 80 HP, 76 - 80 rollout 8 - 10 paddle Hauler 9" x 8" rim, +8" swingarm, 15 x 38 - 40 gearing.
Raptor) 80 - 90 HP, 80 rollout 10 - 12 paddle Hauler 9" x 8" rim, +8" - 10" swingarm, 15 x 36 - 38 gearing.
Raptor) 90 - 100 HP, 80+ rollout 12 paddle Hauler 9" x 8" rim, +10" - 12" swingarm, 16 x 38 - 40 gearing.
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That is what I was looking for :thumbs:
Quadracers thanks for your input. Now how much does rider weight play on you chart there? I weigh 270 plus 2 swinger, around 60 hp on a 660. On weight more is less right? So less paddles for me than skinny asses?
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That's correct. I would go on the low paddle side for you, in which ever category your bikes fits into HP wise. Your added weight will allow the bike to still leave hard with much less paddle than someone who weighs
180 lb., plus you will have more MPH with say 7 paddles then 10.
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Another point I forgot to make is that when you remove the stock 20 x 10 x 9 (62 rollout) tires and install the larger 22 x 11 x 8 (72 rollout) Haulers you are making a gear change equal to 1 countershaft tooth. So even tho you might still have the stock 14 x 38 gearing, with the larger 72 rollout tires it is comparable to running a 15 tooth countershaft sprocket. If you want to maintain the same operating RPMs as 14 x 38, you will need to go down to 13 x 38 to do so will the larger 72 rollout tires.
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Thanks!!!
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WOW, Tom you are the man, that's the most information on tires and swingers and gearing I've seen and you gave it all out in one shot. Thanks a ton, that will help alot of people on here and get the majority of people where they need to be. That's what it's all about, helping your fellow atvers out :thumbs:
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Tom, from all of us, Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge. From us to you, here's a free VIP upgrade.
Make sure you join in the monthly give away!!
:thumbs:
Aaron
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Damn Tom, that's alot of info :nod:
What's your opinion on Glider vs Hauler Vs Extremes vs Rippers? ???
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Your welcome guys, hope the information helps.
Thanks for the free up grade Aaron, very much appreciated.
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Damn Tom, that's alot of info :nod:
What's your opinion on Glider vs Hauler Vs Extremes vs Rippers? ???
Rippers are way to much tire for 4 strokes in the sand as well as in 300 ft. We ran some on our rigid that is a NOS build with well over a 120 hp and they really affected our MPH while only showing slight gains in our 60 ft. times. Overall ET was slower.
Extremes are the perfect tire for Raptors in 300 ft. racing and exceptionaly high HP bikes in the sand.
Haulers and Gliders are the ideal tire for hillshooting or duning for most builds, both can get you into the winners circle. Just remember less is more.
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What's your take on the hauler/glider combos?
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anyone try the skat hawks yet? we always stay at south camp (little sahara) and you have to travel on the road.