Alright so I was dyno'd with my 6 ply Razr's on ITP Baja wheels (not sure on the exact weight, but obviously heavier than stock and much heavier than a dedicated street/dyno tire).
Has anyone dyno'd the same bike ,same day with dyno tires (some sort of slick/street tire be it american racers, hoosiers, trailer tires etc) and then with some dirt tires? (be it stock, or razrs or what have you)????
I am curious the HP percentage difference.... Is it true that rotating mass has Less affect on Torque reading than it does HP? I read/heard that somewhere awhile back so I am curious if dyno'ing on my razrs is affecting both HP&TQ or just HP. I know that if the tires slip at all on the dyno it will really screw up the TQ but I am pretty sure I was not spinning so I dont think that is the case.
Any info is appreciated :)
was looking up some info for you and stumbled upon this, a good read for all you Dyno racers
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0612phr_dyno_accuracy_testing/index.html
Back when bamaquad was still stock we did that test, almost exactly 3hp difference on a stocker.
So needless to say, the percentage would be a constant change. So if a stocker put down say 38hp and then 41 with dyno tires that would be a ~7.8% difference.
So on a build that put down 55hp (mine) with dyno tires I could have achieved ~59.3 hp.
But...that was for whatever dyno tires they were (unknown) vs stock tires (known). So... to be actual we would need the weight of my tires (ITP baja wheel with Razr 6 ply tire) as well as the weight of that dyno tire. Since stock wheels/tires are pretty lightweight I would guess I am another at least 4 lbs per tire/wheel over the stockers. So this would increase the above percent quite significantly.
Granted I am bench racing which I hate when people do but im trying to justify my low numbers.
Two other factors were my build was having an oil consumption issue (need different rings..total seal = fail). So im sure there is a slight power loss there. Plus I had my ignition programmed with custom curves and did not play around with those at all (not even sure which curve its set on).
And to top it all off..even if I were to go back with some lightweight Hoosier slicks on .125 blue labels, WITH good rings, on the right ignition curve I would probably put down much better numbers. The problem with that...this build does not feel all that fast at all. To me it feels like about another 3-4 hp over the Big 3.
Barker duals
+3 KDS TB
KDS inline Evac Valve
Custom intake (stock tube, with FUEL ATV adaptor with HUGE No Toil filter on it)
+1 valve'd Barker CNC head
Beehive springs with RJ Cam
11:1 Diamond Piston
DL custom programmed Dynatek ignition
...And colorado700, just read that article and it was very informative! I guess my reason for posting this is to more or less realize my build FEELS weak and not just LOOKS weak on paper...lol.
What altitude is this at??
Also, was the bike jus dynoed or was it tuned on the dyno?
Is it running a map that was given to you from a very similar build or was it tuned by your dyno guy during the dyno session?
900 ft elevation.
We were 1.5 hours into the dyno (actually a little more but he was taking his time and explaining some of the software to me...really cool guy). He works for dynojet and travels nation wide teaching classes on how to tune the PCIII/PC5 so im pretty confident in his tuning skills!
Because of the oil loss & the fact I didnt have extra oil with me combined with the fact he was concerned about his o2 sensors with me burning oil means we quit early. He said we were about 60% through the tuning but it was considerably better than it was.
While it was tuned on the dyno the pulls he printed for me were the very first two runs we made after strapping it down. Considering my AFR was horribly lean in the midrange (and overall) I had to have been at least a few hp/tq up over the baseline pulls for the day.
My first advice would be ditch the diamond and get a cp. cause your for sure loosing power there and causing dyno issues from the smoke so your not getting a good tune. I just went down this road about 2 months ago with a diamond piston. the diamond is a nice piston however you will never get it to stop smoking until they come up with better rings. I had the diamond 12:5, it smoked from first start up till i pulled it out and gave it to troywcc to experiment with. and it was not smoking due to ring allignment cause he got the piston just the way it came outta my motor oil on top of the piston and all. As soon as i installed the cp everything was good again, no smoking and no oil usage :thumbs: the diamond does have 2 good good features #1 it will clear any bugs within a 2 mile radius :rofl: and it works well to keep your papers from blowing off your desk :nod: Look what the fast guys are running CP pistons. as i stated earlier the diamond is a high quality piston,its the rings that are the problem
actually most of the hp loss comes from tire slip on the drum. If you go to a dyno with razors or something like that its almost like peeing in the wind its really hard to get the accurate results that you can with a street style tire. It really effects it on quads over 50hp i have seen 6-9hp diff and almost 10mph off from stock reading on bike odometer on 60-70hp quads from tires which is pretty big number a stocker 450r or something you might only see 1-2hp change. The weight difference will also make some #changes but not as much as tread vs no tread. I would see maybe 2hp change on a big raptor when running a small american racer vs a heavier 20" duro top fighter
Also.. I wouldn't base all your feeling into the numbers, was it Gunz ??? That thought his bike wasn't all that much better after doing a bunhc of motor work? Then took it to a hill and did some drags with it against other raptors and was beating them by 10+ lengths :clap:
im running the kds piston with the total seal rings, there is ZERO smoke. i am not using oil that i have seen at all. (havent put on alot of seat time yet). i will be going to a dyno soon and will be runnin my bald stock tires
Quote from: r00st on July 14, 2009, 11:35:00 PM
So needless to say, the percentage would be a constant change. So if a stocker put down say 38hp and then 41 with dyno tires that would be a ~7.8% difference.
So on a build that put down 55hp (mine) with dyno tires I could have achieved ~59.3 hp.
But...that was for whatever dyno tires they were (unknown) vs stock tires (known). So... to be actual we would need the weight of my tires (ITP baja wheel with Razr 6 ply tire) as well as the weight of that dyno tire. Since stock wheels/tires are pretty lightweight I would guess I am another at least 4 lbs per tire/wheel over the stockers. So this would increase the above percent quite significantly.
Granted I am bench racing which I hate when people do but im trying to justify my low numbers.
Two other factors were my build was having an oil consumption issue (need different rings..total seal = fail). So im sure there is a slight power loss there. Plus I had my ignition programmed with custom curves and did not play around with those at all (not even sure which curve its set on).
And to top it all off..even if I were to go back with some lightweight Hoosier slicks on .125 blue labels, WITH good rings, on the right ignition curve I would probably put down much better numbers. The problem with that...this build does not feel all that fast at all. To me it feels like about another 3-4 hp over the Big 3.
Barker duals
+3 KDS TB
KDS inline Evac Valve
Custom intake (stock tube, with FUEL ATV adaptor with HUGE No Toil filter on it)
+1 valve'd Barker CNC head
Beehive springs with RJ Cam
11:1 Diamond Piston
DL custom programmed Dynatek ignition
...And colorado700, just read that article and it was very informative! I guess my reason for posting this is to more or less realize my build FEELS weak and not just LOOKS weak on paper...lol.
Let me know if you have Tim's piston or mine.......We'll get you the proper oil rings out. I am not real sure why this is going on. About 80% of my pistons are working perfectly....... Not sure if we had a factory defective oil ring or what. Total seal supplies many of the aftermarket piston companies. If you have a an aftermarket piston in your 700, chances are good they have rings supplied by Total Seal.
The low dyno numbers are mainly due to your tires, but it sounds like there is a LOT of power left in tuning. Obviously the oil isn't helping (it could easily be 2-3 hp down). I have a quad out there doing about 57hp with the same tires and the build probably does feel lazy until it gets traction. He does a pretty good job of cleaning up the competition at the track on a trail build :nod: It would be funny if the tires had a limit of like 57 hp and gave up like a clutch or something :lol:
Quote from: 1badazz_700r on July 15, 2009, 02:33:18 AM
My first advice would be ditch the diamond and get a cp. cause your for sure loosing power there and causing dyno issues from the smoke so your not getting a good tune. I just went down this road about 2 months ago with a diamond piston. the diamond is a nice piston however you will never get it to stop smoking until they come up with better rings. I had the diamond 12:5, it smoked from first start up till i pulled it out and gave it to troywcc to experiment with. and it was not smoking due to ring allignment cause he got the piston just the way it came outta my motor oil on top of the piston and all. As soon as i installed the cp everything was good again, no smoking and no oil usage :thumbs: the diamond does have 2 good good features #1 it will clear any bugs within a 2 mile radius :rofl: and it works well to keep your papers from blowing off your desk :nod: Look what the fast guys are running CP pistons. as i stated earlier the diamond is a high quality piston,its the rings that are the problem
Hmmm, that's funny. I have the Diamond and I have about 40 hours on the build thus far and there is "ZERO" smoke and "ZERO" oil loss.
Ok thanks for all the info everyone.
The Piston came from Tim. I dont think I would even feel alright with myself selling this to somebody (which sucks cuz I paid 200 for it and it has less than 10 hours on it).
So is the problem the depth of the ring lands on the piston? Because obviously its not just the rings if people are using these rings on JE/CP/stock etc etc pistons without any problems!
So...what piston should I go with? The CP "Tech" 11.5:1, or a straight 12:1? Are the CP Shelf 12:1's TRUE compression? I know the 11.5:1 is. I thought I read "most" uncorrected compression pistons that stated they were 12:1 were usually around 11.2 or something?
I would really PREFER to run 93 octane (can get it at the pump) but if I can get some pretty good power without sacrificing longevity of the motor I will run 12/12.5 and just splash some race gas in (unless @ 900 I can run 12:1 safely on 93?)
Sorry for all the questions it just makes me sick after all this I have to pull the damn thing apart with only 10 hours on it! Not that its a lot of money to put the top end back together (gaskets) it just takes time which I dont have much of these days. Granted I think this time I can rebuild it in less than half the time since ive already done it.
Badazzraptor: When you pulled the diamond out, did it tear up your nickasil at all? I dont see why it would but im hoping all I need to do is drop in the new piston and prep the cylinder.
I have went to a racers edge cp piston. but yes kenny this was your diamond piston. I gave it troy to experiment with and according to him the rings were clocked good and they were gapped and installed on the piston by kenny.troy gave the piston to another guy and he cant get it to stop smoking either or at least the last time i talked to troy. i just want to make sure everyone understands that im not trying to talk shit about kenny or his piston,cause as i stated earlier i think the piston's quality is top notch. and kenny is a supper good guy to deal with and very helpful as you all know. I was just at the point where i didnt want to keep tearing my motor down to change rings and see if that was the problem, because kenny did offer to give me new rings to try. I was just stating the problem i had
it did not hurt my cylinder one bit. i pulled the cylinder and piston. Hit the cylinder with a scotch pad and brake cleaner and re-assembled :thumbs:
Nice, thanks for the info.
Which CP are you running now, a shelf piston? What compression?
im running the cp 12:1 off the shelf and it works perfect :thumbs: no issues what so ever
Are you mixing race gas or running straight pump? Whats your elevation?
Do you happen to know if the CP shelf pistons are corrected compression? (ie..12:1 is truly 12:1 and not 11.4:1).
Sorry for all the questions but I want to make sure I know what im getting. I want this to be the LAST time I pull this damn thing apart! lol
Im not sure about the compression. It is a corrected deck height piston because it set right at the top of the cylinder. i guess the older ones sat in the hole a little.I run race fuel to be on the safe side because my +5 crank up's the compression by .7. Call racers edge and seewhat they say
Quote
I have a quad out there doing about 57hp with the same tires and the build probably does feel lazy until it gets traction. He does a pretty good job of cleaning up the competition at the track on a trail build It would be funny if the tires had a limit of like 57 hp and gave up like a clutch or something
Quote
Now who would that be kenny :nod:.....actually before too long my clutch will be gone, I hate dyno's...my bike is possesed :'(
LOL I knew he was talking about you, Jeff!
Did you do anything new to your bike? She still kicking pretty good?
Hopefully once I get this damn piston deal worked out I will have a reliable (non smoking..) build I wont be afraid to thrash on.
Ok this all confuses me. Im tossing a CP 11:1 piston in mine but it seems like a loss with basically all the same mods. Different tires, but should he or I be running a different piston like a 12:1 or 11.5:1?
if you have the stroker crankthat will up your compression by around .7. The question is if you want to run pump gas i would go with the 11:1. If you want to run race fuel go either 12:1 or 13:1 your choice :nod:
No, nothing new...I am getting ready to add a big bore kit and spray (20 shot), but so far I could'nt be happier with my build....I really enjoy beating a good amount of bikes that are lowered and set up for drag with strapped tires and then ridding off into the trails that always spins them up :nod:
Ok, just got confused for a sec, if I spent all this money to pull 10hp and 11tq im gonna flip. But like everyone says "Its if the bike feels faster, not the dyno numbers"
Dont worry a stock bore build is pretty solid even if you go basic with a stock valved head port, drop in 11:1 and even an HCIII!
Power is power...just remember that dyno's are more for tuning than they are for bragging. Differences in dyno's alone can yield up to 10%. Some dyno's are stingy, some are as loose as 5 dollar hooker.
Not to mention the MILLION other factors (dyno operators ability to tune, ignition, intake setup, atmospheric conditions, anything in the driveline (heavy tires/chain) ETC ETC ETC). Dont worry no matter what your build is, it will put a smile on your face :)
At this point in time I cant just make a blanket statement that my build blows...cuz in reality it could be one problem or it could be a half dozen. As of right now the one thing I know is im burning oil. This obviously means im down on power (even if its only 1-2). That combined with the fact I had heavy ass tires/wheels on the dyno, which then means I could have been spinning.
If I had no oil leaking, dyno tires, a perfect tune, perfect ignition mapping and whatever else you can think of my numbers could have been another 10hp/5 ft lbs!
Although im quite confident im not spinning my tires one thing that was brought to my attention is the possiblity im spinning the tires on the wheels (Thanks, Jeff!). I need to check this out as well.
I will have some new parts coming in shortly and (pending im not piss as broke again) I will try to get back on the dyno. First with just a new piston and then possibly swapping cams so I can decide which setup suits my riding the best.
I feel like you have a ton of power left in tuning once you get the oiling problem taken care of. I can probably help you out on the legwork for cam testing. We will have a dyno AND a track test comparing the RJ to the Web 4 (timed of course) with a Bo head. Then the swap to my head. The RJ has turned out to be a bit stronger on the track than I originally thought.
I think you are gonna want to go with the FCI intake to broaden the powerband another 300 RPM or so and an extra 3Hp in the overrev. If you want more power up top, I can retard your cam 4° for another 300 or so RPM.
Jeff and one of my other customers have told me today that they are spinning the wheels in the tires quite a bit in a short amount of runs, but I don't think it could possibly be enough to affect dyno numbers. I also don't think you are at that level of performance yet. We just need to get you dialed in so you'll be happy with the build :thumbs:
what Bo head? STK valve or +1?... buy the track u mean fat drags?
Quote from: DL700 on July 18, 2009, 12:36:18 AM
what Bo head? STK valve or +1?... buy the track u mean fat drags?
Yes + 1 and on the flat drags. This is not intended to be a test between Bo's head and mine. This is to prove how a combination works together. We are already at a disadvantage with the RJ cam because of traction problems with the Web 4. It is probably gonna be worse. We will have reaction times etc. I already have guys running X-country stuff that say there is no comparison between cams in that venue, so I am curious how they stack up on the dragstrip :thumbs:
changing cams like that will need a tire and gearing change to accomidate each.....
ive found that sacrificing some of the mid range torque and gearing it to load up the motor in 2nd gear launches produces a stronger and much more consistent launch, but in turn causes shift points and rpm to be more critical......but its all good, i have the rpm range to work with, my current setup optimal shift rpm is 8500 rpm.... :thumbs:
SETUP/TIRES AND GEARING are much more important the a few HP
If you plan on winning I suggest you get the maximum HP available, then find the tire/gearing combo to match. Not the other way around.
Quote from: DL700 on July 18, 2009, 11:14:00 AM
changing cams like that will need a tire and gearing change to accomidate each.....
ive found that sacrificing some of the mid range torque and gearing it to load up the motor in 2nd gear launches produces a stronger and much more consistent launch, but in turn causes shift points and rpm to be more critical......but its all good, i have the rpm range to work with, my current setup optimal shift rpm is 8500 rpm.... :thumbs:
SETUP/TIRES AND GEARING are much more important the a few HP
Quote from: Colorado700R on July 18, 2009, 12:13:17 PM
If you plan on winning I suggest you get the maximum HP available, then find the tire/gearing combo to match. Not the other way around.
That is what we are looking for...... maximum
average HP across the RPM drop of each gear. Since there is about a 2500 RPM drop between gears, we want the maximum average power across that whole 2500 RPM. If one cam makes 2 or 3 more HP up top, but the overall average is lower, the cam with less power on top, but better average will be faster. It will not feel as fast because of the more linear power without a sudden burst at the end. Most of us have experienced this with factory turbo 4 cyl cars that feel like rockets, but end up not being fast at all when it comes to the track. The RJ on a stock bore/stroke is pulling to 8,600 without dropping off with a +3 TB and FCI. With a 50mm(sleeved 54) and FCI it will go well past the factory rev limit. A 48 or 49mm TB will probably be the strongest overall performer on this setup 8)
yup, max hp does not win races but rather a great setup and a awesome powerband optimized for the rpm range u are using...
if u cant put the power down to the ground it is useless.....
changing intake setups on the BIg 52mm picked up 3 mph for me...
My machine Dynos 10 HP less and about the same peak TQ as some of the others that I run with, But I am right with them due to a Broad flat TQ curve. I actually run up the steeper stuff faster.
Peak HP numbers are great for Dyno Racers but a Broad flat Torque curve is where it is at in the real world.
hp sells engines, torque wins races :thumbs: