Re-ring pics...........you decide.

[preddy08]

[preddy08]

FYI, gapless rings taken OUT!

[dabigbratj]

sucks

[Krandall]

dang dude...so much for having a lot of time on it.. 

you think it's compression related that it failed.. how much time is/was on it?

[preddy08]

dang dude...so much for having a lot of time on it.. 

you think it's compression related that it failed.. how much time is/was on it?

20+ hours, with countless dyno pulls.

Highly doubt its compression related.

I'm not to sure why it happend, but I'm just going back to what works.

[Kamakazi]

im trying to comprehend what i see here.  the rings let oil by, and gapless rings were not installed?  i can still see the cross thatches in the cylinder bore.  so was it smoking off the initial start or was it developed?  and is the bore exact?  any chance its overbored a bit?

[dabigbratj]

how many hours did you have on the 1 set of rings when you first built it

[preddy08]

im trying to comprehend what i see here.  the rings let oil by, and gapless rings were not installed?  i can still see the cross thatches in the cylinder bore.  so was it smoking off the initial start or was it developed?  and is the bore exact?  any chance its overbored a bit?

My bike never quite smoking with the gapless rings installed. It smoked since day one, and never really got better. The bore was just fine, inspected by Bo and myself. My exhaust ports were oily also.

Jake, when I tore it down last winter it had 2-300 HARD hours on it, and looked nothing like this.

[Kenny]

Did you specify low tension oil rings? I found out the hardest way possible that the oil rings were not wiping enough oil from the cylinder walls. Lightweight oil stops this on marginal oiling problems. It will stop burning oil as well. Evidently the 700 absolutely floods the cylinder walls with oil splash The gapless top rings are doing their job and coming in at 1% or so leakdown (5-7% is the norm for  fresh standard gapped rings), but when the oil rings get overcome, the oil wicks up through the compression rings. Put standard tension oil rings back in it and the problem will stop completely Let me know who you dealt with at Total Seal and I will try to get you fixed up. This is a problem that is unique to the Raptor motor so far. I have used these rings for years, and I never had a problem until the Raptor. I have a dozen or so guys running the low tension package with good success, and others that evidently never stopped oiling. One thing that really throws them out of whack is studs torqued down a bit tighter than stock bolts. The low tension package doesn't seem to have enough tension to even make them "wear" in. I had a set of torque plates made for the Raptor and torqued them down with studs to 45 ft-lbs and I could see light between the rings and the cylinder wall in many places. When I let the studs go, it was making contact all the way around :'(

[DL700]

sucks man... I feel your pain..... good thing is now u will pick up at least 2 more HP

[preddy08]

Did you specify low tension oil rings? I found out the hardest way possible that the oil rings were not wiping enough oil from the cylinder walls. Lightweight oil stops this on marginal oiling problems. It will stop burning oil as well. Evidently the 700 absolutely floods the cylinder walls with oil splash The gapless top rings are doing their job and coming in at 1% or so leakdown (5-7% is the norm for  fresh standard gapped rings), but when the oil rings get overcome, the oil wicks up through the compression rings. Put standard tension oil rings back in it and the problem will stop completely Let me know who you dealt with at Total Seal and I will try to get you fixed up. This is a problem that is unique to the Raptor motor so far. I have used these rings for years, and I never had a problem until the Raptor. I have a dozen or so guys running the low tension package with good success, and others that evidently never stopped oiling. One thing that really throws them out of whack is studs torqued down a bit tighter than stock bolts. The low tension package doesn't seem to have enough tension to even make them "wear" in. I had a set of torque plates made for the Raptor and torqued them down with studs to 45 ft-lbs and I could see light between the rings and the cylinder wall in many places. When I let the studs go, it was making contact all the way around :'(

Head was torqued down to 40ft lbs. And I was dealing with Ed at total seal. I spent some time on the phone with him telling him all about what I'm doing and what cylinder I'm running. I may give you a call tomorrow some time in the afternoon. I apreciate the concern Kenny!

[socalrappy700]

Damn that sucks, and I agree.....go back to what works.

[1badazz_700r]

  im sorry to hear you are having issues.To bad this didnt have to come appart when you had it stripped for powder coating. cause that bike is extremly nice looking and if your luck is like mine i would have marked it the  up 

[Kenny]

Did you specify low tension oil rings? I found out the hardest way possible that the oil rings were not wiping enough oil from the cylinder walls. Lightweight oil stops this on marginal oiling problems. It will stop burning oil as well. Evidently the 700 absolutely floods the cylinder walls with oil splash The gapless top rings are doing their job and coming in at 1% or so leakdown (5-7% is the norm for  fresh standard gapped rings), but when the oil rings get overcome, the oil wicks up through the compression rings. Put standard tension oil rings back in it and the problem will stop completely Let me know who you dealt with at Total Seal and I will try to get you fixed up. This is a problem that is unique to the Raptor motor so far. I have used these rings for years, and I never had a problem until the Raptor. I have a dozen or so guys running the low tension package with good success, and others that evidently never stopped oiling. One thing that really throws them out of whack is studs torqued down a bit tighter than stock bolts. The low tension package doesn't seem to have enough tension to even make them "wear" in. I had a set of torque plates made for the Raptor and torqued them down with studs to 45 ft-lbs and I could see light between the rings and the cylinder wall in many places. When I let the studs go, it was making contact all the way around :'(

Head was torqued down to 40ft lbs. And I was dealing with Ed at total seal. I spent some time on the phone with him telling him all about what I'm doing and what cylinder I'm running. I may give you a call tomorrow some time in the afternoon. I apreciate the concern Kenny!

I would like to talk to Ed about this if you would like to continue moving forward with this. I am sure the gapless rings are doing their job perfectly, but the oil rings are not. Please let me know what weight and type of oil you were running so we can keep this in the ol' database

To everyone else...
One of the most disturbing trends I find when building engines is the lack of curiosity by many. Most people see a problem and don't take the time to work out the newer technologies. Otherwise we keep going back to the same old thing and we don't see progress to the next level.

I just had a deal with a friend of mine where his big brand piston had a cast top ring, and ductile second ring, which is absolutely backward from what it should be. Luckily he was one of only a couple of guys that I know of that would have found the problem(including engine builders). This same company and a few others sent out chrome faced rings for years to go on nikasil coated bores. Some companies still do. These companies comprise probably 98% of all pistons sold for the Raptor. Heavy ring tension masks these problems for the short amount of hours we normally put on a Raptor before a rebuild.

When troubleshooting a problem, you have to find the actual problem. As stated before, studs and heavy oil are major contributors to this problem. I have had custom torque plates made for boring and honing on these cylinders so they are round when it counts(once the engine is assembled). Once this is done there is no question which rings perform the best.

The hardest thing about troubleshooting these problems long distance is that I only know one person that even knows his actual piston to wall clearance(Raptor Randy). In the automotive world, using torque plates and precise bore/piston measurements are standard fare even on non-performance "budget rebuilder" engines. Did you guys know that boring with torque plates will add about 30,000 miles to a street engines life? The ATV world still has a long way to go

[VelociRaptor]

I dont guinney pig that much with stuff thats replacing good parts that already work well especially for something used for noncompetitive applications. When it comes to pushing the envelope then thats another story. 98% of Raptor owners would never know if they had the latest and greatest ring in their engine or not. I told Preddy before that I would just put a set of good moly rings in and call it a day.