Ice racing/riding info-questions-tips-tricks. Post what you know here

[SULLY0556]

   Here's the place to ask about and share info for running on the ice. 

   Raptors are not the best bike for the ice due to their forward center of gravity so it takes some tricks to get that weight evened out for rear wheel traction.  What have you done and did it work or not.   Pictures are appreciated.

[SULLY0556]

To start the year I had some Honda shocks up front that lowered me 6", I reversed the rear shock bracket which dropped me 3-4" in the rear.  I ran a home-made sway bar in a neutral position since we make left and right turns. New tires set up this year also.
   I was having problems in the tight corners with the back end letting loose but figured I had to live with it.  I can scream thru the straights but get ate up in the corners so I started trying new things and taking suggestions from the guys that were faster and have been doing it longer. 

#1   The old pro said to scale my bike to see what my weights were on each tire.  I was amazed to see that it was 80lbs heavier in the front than the back with me on the bike!  Time to lift the front and drop the back.   I went back to my stock shocks (reservoir shocks wouldn't fit with the sway bar) and strapped them about 3" lower.  I then built a lowering link for the rear and dropped it another 3".  It weighed out at +20 in the rear with that change.   I still lost traction in the tight corners but it was better.

#2    The fastest quad rider out there followed me around the track and said I should lose the sway bar. (he doesn't run one).  He said that a sway bar shouldn't be solid but should have a torsion bar in it for a little give.  So I removed the sway bar.

#3   The old pro followed me around the track and told me that I'm not throttling thru the corners so my tires aren't grabbing.  This made a big difference.  You need to load the tires for traction but it's a hard transition for me since I'm pretty old to be learning new tricks.   (I hit 44 this year).

  I took some time on the track last night alone and tried a few things to see what helps and what hurts.   We're heading to FonDuLac Wi this Saturday to run so I wanted to maybe get a better stick before going to a new track.  (we do road courses mostly)
   I ran the bike to start and it seemed better without the sway bar but still sand tracked the corners way too much for my liking.

   I started with air pressure in the rear tires.  I'm running C/S tires with Kanadian studs (pretty aggressive).  14PSI is what I was running because it created the flattest surface across the studs.  I'm having problems getting the back to stick so I tried going extreme and put in 20PSI..... It was loose as hell!   Next I dropped them down to 10PSI and it was much better.  I'll try 8-9 this weekend and see if that makes it any better.

    I also un-strapped the front shocks for more weight in the rear.  It looks stupid and I lost a bit of grab up front so my next move is to build some lowering brackets for the stock shocks, and run my piggy-backs with the compression set a little higher.  I'd like to see my front dropped 2-3" from stock.  I'll also have my new rear link done in a few weeks so I can adjust my back end down even more if needed

    With the tires I have I should be grabbing like mad in the corners and I'm not so any other suggestions would be appreciated!!

[fredyd]

From the look of your tiers you need to grab a nut driver and align your studs.
Fronts should look like this / I \ . The outside running with the angle of the corners and middles vertical.
Backs should be like this II - - - - - II. The outside vertical to grab in the corners when the tiers rolling over a little and the middles horizontal to grab down the stretch when the center of the tier spins up and the middle starts grabbing.

[SULLY0556]

  I'm actually running 1/2 the rows on my rear tires straight (forward to back) for more cornering grab and it's still not enough.  My fronts aren't nutted yet (didn't have time) so they don't hold their indexing very well. I'll nut them over the summer to help that out. (my rears are all nutted).  I have plenty of forward traction and could likely run 100% of my rear studs front to back but I don't think that will help that much.  I think it's more of a weight issue with not enough ass on the seat.    I'm 190# in my riding clothes.

  With that said,  Thank you for the input!  keep the suggestions coming!

[SULLY0556]

   What is a good tire pressure for the rear in your opinion?

[Troy31]

I've ran 7-14 psi on my 450 and 10-12 was what I liked the best.

We only race ice ovals out here but I can almost guarantee you that a real sway bar will help you. I race other races in the summer on pavement and gravel with my swaybar and it helps cornering speed in all circumstances. Also if the rear still wants to come around you probably aren't hang hanging off the side of your quad enough.

IMO lining your stud heads up doesn't do anything except give you something to do between heats.

[SULLY0556]

   Thanks!   I would agree with you on the indexing of the studs,  I think tire pressure is more important by far.  I hooked up pretty good this weekend on a bigger track with more sweeping corners.  I've also found that hanging off the side of the quad isn't as important (for me) as shifting my weight back for more weight on the rear wheels.  The purpose of leaning is to keep the tires on the ground and that's not my problem, my inside rear tire never comes off the ground at all.
   Keep it coming! 


Thanks!!!

[Troy31]

A friend of mine races a 700 and he seemed like he was having the same problems with rear end traction. A shorter swingarm would almost definitely fix the problem but that is spendy. I'd try adjusting the rebound on the rear shock, start off by increasing it and see what that does.

[SULLY0556]

   Well I did tighten the springs up all the way on all 3 shocks and adjusted the compression for the rear shock up all the way.  I'm running stock shocks in the front but I'm swapping them for my 450 piggyback shocks this week so I can adjust them up also.
   I agree 100% on the shorter swing arm but $$$. 


   Thanks for the input, I'm glad I'm not the only one out here with this problem.  It's getting better but still not good enough to be real competitive.

   Pics of our rides can be seen at    http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=447143083

[fredyd]

IMO lining your stud heads up doesn't do anything except give you something to do between heats.

All I know is on one day we ran my nephews raptor with random studs.  Could hardly hold the thing on the track in the corners. Took a walk around the pits saw how the points racers had theirs studded. Spent an hour or so that night aligning my nephews studs. The next day that bike made it in the finals.
I ran the quad in both configurations on the test track that was set up. Now maybe it was just a confidence deal.  But, I'm here to tell you IMO it was two completely different rides.

[SULLY0556]

   Tommy Johns is from our club and just took 2nd in the Winter Nationals at Mount Pleasant last weekend plus took first last year in the Nationals.  I asked him about it last year and he said it's nit-picky so he doesn't do it but I figured I'd try anything. I also notices that Dan Kujala (who won this year) didn't have his studs indexed at all.   They also have perfectly set up bikes though!
   I bought a used swing arm yesterday and am going to cut it down by 2" to transfer more weight to the back end.  It'll take some shock mount modifying but I've got all summer for that.

[Troy31]

That swinger should do the trick.

What kind of quads are the fast studded guys running at the nats? 2 or 4 stroke? I really want to make it to the nationals some day but its just so damn far. Not sure its worth a 20 hour drive. Thought about it this year but a crash in the last race of our season put that out of budget.

[SULLY0556]

  Tommy Johns is running a Banshee that is pretty stout.  It's all about the handeling and the driver, He blew up his banshee early this season and ran a YFZ450 for a few races and still did well.
   Here's a pic of Tommy on his Banshee and Dan Kujala's bike from last year.


   The trick for me is to figure out the shock geometry after shortening the swing arm, I was looking at it last night and I'll likely have to make a new shock link.  Projects like this are fun though. 

[insaneraptor700]

i think ur going about ur set up all wrong. you want your rear rebound to be slow so when you get off the gas for the corners it doesnt rebound fast upfront therefor you will get more rear traction. also check your LR weight. you might have to much since u said ur LR doesnt come up. remember more LR weight your loose coming in tight coming out. try goin into the turns with ur ass on the right side or just add more RR weight. your RF shock try looseing the compression up alittle. it will roll over alittle more taking LR weight out and causing you to be tight. the LF shock your compression should be all the way soft. if you have rebound on the front loosed that up alittle. when you soften the compression on the front you should have more front end traction but play with  it so you dont lose rear traction. its all trial and error. if you have a adjustable axle suck the LR in one spacer and the RR in 2-3 spacers. play wit it try different things and it should work.

[TeamDNS]

sully.. its jordan from escanaba on the white raptor!! the girlfriend ran my bike for the most part this year and we dont have any trouble with the corners.. as you are well aware of hahaha..  tire pressure is the biggest thing!!!  depending on how the ice is hard/soft depends on tire pressure.. I run a homemade swaybar but it has a extension from a socket set.. like 30 inch one but thats what i have on the inside of mine.. and i redid it again this year.. which the yfz has the same mounting system as the raptors.