Single vs double oil ring pistons --make that double compression rings

[preddy08]

If I get a wild butt hair this winter I will get that ordered up. It wont be for another month or two. Our last race is early novenber.


Does anyone see why one could'nt run a single total seal ring setup?

No reason not to that I know of 

The total seal gapless top ring is just the natural evolution of the gapless second ring. By moving the gapless ring to the #1 ring groove it effectively seals the cylinder closer to the combustion chamber. This not only increases the cylinder seal on the compression and power stokes, but also improves the ring seal on the intake stroke resulting in better cylinder filling on a normally aspirated engine. The increased amount of force generated by the combustion process in turn delivers a greater amount of energy to the crankshaft.  Either gapless top ring or 2nd ring offers superior cylinder sealing. This is from the total seal tech page as there's no way I could explain it any better in my own words.


Randy

Cool thanks.

As someone just pointed on the "other" forum, I meant to say double compression rings, not double oil rings. I hadn't yet finished drinking my pot of coffee when I posted that. 

Figured that much....LOLOLOL Unless you wanted really good oil scrapers...lol

[wobble]

Figured that much....LOLOLOL Unless you wanted really good oil scrapers...lol

Now I feel like an idiot! I gotta quit multitasking. 

[Kenny]

 Woops, I missed this. This is a debate that still rages on in pro racing ranks. Single ring pistons have been around for 30+ years, and have never taken over, yet double rings have never shut out singles. I think it is kind of a wash. Single rings will have a higher leakdown rate, double rings will seal better with the possibility of higher friction. Single rings are usually reserved for engines that see more frequent teardowns, or are made wider to improve longevity, bringing friction back up near two ring levels. When I designed my pistons, I never seriously considered a single ring design because of how many hours guys wanna put on their quad before rebuild. Using low tension oil rings is only recommended for two ring designs. Low tension oil rings can more than make up the difference in friction. In my opinion, two compression ring pistons are the only sensible choice.

Just to show that there is no black and white answer..... Total seal gapless rings (which I use) can have a tendency to flutter at very high RPM, but when you use crankcase vacuum to stabilize this, the gapless design pays off in spades.  

[wobble]

Woops, I missed this. This is a debate that still rages on in pro racing ranks. Single ring pistons have been around for 30+ years, and have never taken over, yet double rings have never shut out singles. I think it is kind of a wash. Single rings will have a higher leakdown rate, double rings will seal better with the possibility of higher friction. Single rings are usually reserved for engines that see more frequent teardowns, or are made wider to improve longevity, bringing friction back up near two ring levels. When I designed my pistons, I never seriously considered a single ring design because of how many hours guys wanna put on their quad before rebuild. Using low tension oil rings is only recommended for two ring designs. Low tension oil rings can more than make up the difference in friction. In my opinion, two compression ring pistons are the only sensible choice.

Thanks. That explanation helps.

Just to show that there is no black and white answer..... Total seal gapless rings (which I use) can have a tendency to flutter at very high RPM, but when you use crankcase vacuum to stabilize this, the gapless design pays off in spades.  

Could you please expand on this? Gapless rings seems to be showing up alot in this thread. Is this something relatively new to the ATV community or have I just not been paying attention?

[zebradog]

I will be contacting Venom soon to see about running a single "total seal type" top ring fior his pistons.


If anyone is willing to bum me a leak down tester I will share my complete and un-bias finding. I would love to find that out too. I dont have time to get one togeather. I'm working 60 hour work weeks, planning a wedding, and trying to find time to ride and get in shape for up and coming races.

If you getting married, you're probalby broke too; I know I was....wait I still am 

Anyway, here's a pretty cheap leak down tester.  I've seen it a little cheaper when it goes on sale, but I don't remember how much cheaper.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94190

[SprinterX]

Woops, I missed this. When I designed my pistons, I never seriously considered a single ring design because of how many hours guys wanna put on their quad before rebuild. In my opinion, two compression ring pistons are the only sensible choice.

Just to show that there is no black and white answer..... Total seal gapless rings (which I use) can have a tendency to flutter at very high RPM, but when you use crankcase vacuum to stabilize this, the gapless design pays off in spades.  

Speaking of Total Seal Gapless rings and your piston design reminds me, any word on a delivery date for those replacement rings for your "Corrected Height" 11.0:1 pistons?

[RaptorRandy]

I will be contacting Venom soon to see about running a single "total seal type" top ring fior his pistons.


If anyone is willing to bum me a leak down tester I will share my complete and un-bias finding. I would love to find that out too. I dont have time to get one togeather. I'm working 60 hour work weeks, planning a wedding, and trying to find time to ride and get in shape for up and coming races.

If you getting married, you're probalby broke too; I know I was....wait I still am 

Anyway, here's a pretty cheap leak down tester.  I've seen it a little cheaper when it goes on sale, but I don't remember how much cheaper.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94190

John.....that kit is  cheaply made and not long lasting IMHO......my buddy got one and the gauges and regulator turned to shit after he used it a few times. Now the cheap bastage keeps borrowing mine 
You get what you pay for and tools are a lifetime investment....at least IMO they are.


Randy

[zebradog]

I don't like stale tools Randy, I like to keep 'em fresh with new ones

I was about to buy one for myself, maybe I'll rethink that...

[wobble]

Buy a good one John. Then I will just use yours!

[zebradog]

Buy a good one John. Then I will just use yours!

Oh yah, I'll get right on that...

[Kenny]

Total seal rings are pretty new in the ATV world because of expense. The top rings alone account for $30 of my piston prices. I like them for longevity. Even high-end engine builders can't seem to agree on their virtues. They work well in this application, so I use 'em.

[RaptorRandy]

Total seal rings are pretty new in the ATV world because of expense. The top rings alone account for $30 of my piston prices. I like them for longevity. Even high-end engine builders can't seem to agree on their virtues. They work well in this application, so I use 'em.

They sure have worked good for me in every type of application I have ever run them in 

[wobble]

If total seal rings seal so well, then why run a 2-ring setup? Would a single "total seal" ring do the job?

[wobble]

Nevermind. I just re-read Kenny's post. Running a single "total seal" would wear quicker than a dual ring setup.