http://www.kenzcycletech.com/
Checking out the big builders sites, Looks like Kenz is seeing a pattern here... CNC is the way to go.
Wonder what the going rate is?
I'm sure they will be around the same price as racers edge. I would also be willilng to bet that they'll be doing TB boring soon.
I like the CNC option because it's HARD for a computer to screw things up. But how come It costs more than a person manually doing it? ???
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 08:33:48 AM
I like the CNC option because it's HARD for a computer to screw things up. But how come It costs more than a person manually doing it? ???
Bells and whistles.....its all about the bells and whistles.
Have to pay for that CNC somehow.
I understand you have to pay for it somehow. But in my eyes, that's a business cost. Taking a person out of the factor would be a way I would think to increase production and take away a person. Leaving more money for the company and a way to lower end user cost... Oh well...
To offset the cost of the expensive equipment used to machine them. It's cool for us we have so many choices now. Racer's Edge, Kenz, Tim Barker, Kenny, cnc seems to be the only way to go. I think the cost is worth the piece of mind that your head is as consistent as it can get.
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 08:37:40 AM
I understand you have to pay for it somehow. But in my eyes, that's a business cost. Taking a person out of the factor would be a way I would think to increase production and take away a person. Leaving more money for the company and a way to lower end user cost... Oh well...
I wonder if the costs will go down in time once cnc becomes the standard?
Quote from: troywcc on June 30, 2008, 08:39:35 AM
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 08:37:40 AM
I understand you have to pay for it somehow. But in my eyes, that's a business cost. Taking a person out of the factor would be a way I would think to increase production and take away a person. Leaving more money for the company and a way to lower end user cost... Oh well...
I wonder if the costs will go down in time once cnc becomes the standard?
I'm hoping. I'm sure as time moves on we'll see more companies come out of the wood work like Racers Edge did. That alone can only bring prices down IMO.
That's what was nice about when Bo started up his business. He got out there, had a low price with great gains comperable to some of the big names, If someone jumps on that bandwagon with CNC, they'll steal the business!
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 08:43:02 AM
Quote from: troywcc on June 30, 2008, 08:39:35 AM
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 08:37:40 AM
I understand you have to pay for it somehow. But in my eyes, that's a business cost. Taking a person out of the factor would be a way I would think to increase production and take away a person. Leaving more money for the company and a way to lower end user cost... Oh well...
I wonder if the costs will go down in time once cnc becomes the standard?
I'm hoping. I'm sure as time moves on we'll see more companies come out of the wood work like Racers Edge did. That alone can only bring prices down IMO.
That's what was nice about when Bo started up his business. He got out there, had a low price with great gains comperable to some of the big names, If someone jumps on that bandwagon with CNC, they'll steal the business!
It was sad to here Bo stopped head porting. :( But he is doing the right thing for his family. :clap:
I sure hope the CNC goes down. That kinda high, IMHO.
Quote from: NaturalRaptor on June 30, 2008, 09:23:31 AM
It was sad to here Bo stopped head porting. :( But he is doing the right thing for his family. :clap:
I sure hope the CNC goes down. That kinda high, IMHO.
It was REALLY sad. Oh well. You have to keep the family happy :)
I am one of the lucky few that got ported by Bo, but I agree, For the average person looking to get P&P'd the prices are to high.
That's why Bo rocked!
CNC's are the shit :grin_nod:
CNC is da chit :clap:... Who do you think is doing there machining for them???? I would say unless they got the CNC equitment they are contracting out thru RE
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 12:49:15 PM
CNC is da chit :clap:... Who do you think is doing there machining for them???? I would say unless they got the CNC equitment they are contracting out thru RE
RE?
I'm sure they are contracting out. Maybe I'll do some digging.
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 12:49:15 PM
CNC is da chit :clap:... Who do you think is doing there machining for them???? I would say unless they got the CNC equitment they are contracting out thru RE
RE?
I'm sure they are contracting out. Maybe I'll do some digging.
Racers Edge there Shlow-mo :lol:
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 12:49:15 PM
CNC is da chit :clap:... Who do you think is doing there machining for them???? I would say unless they got the CNC equitment they are contracting out thru RE
RE?
I'm sure they are contracting out. Maybe I'll do some digging.
Racers Edge :thumbs:
I would really like to see a CNC head shoot out... Now that would be freaking killer for the consumer end. Bet you hundreds it wouldn't happen though ???
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 12:49:15 PM
CNC is da chit :clap:... Who do you think is doing there machining for them???? I would say unless they got the CNC equitment they are contracting out thru RE
RE?
I'm sure they are contracting out. Maybe I'll do some digging.
They have a cnc now. Ken picked it up awhile ago.
??? How did you find this out?
Mark told me last time I talked to him.
Quote from: Socalrappy700 on June 30, 2008, 01:00:05 PM
Mark told me last time I talked to him.
That is incorrect information, I know for a fact that they are contracting it out ???
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 01:01:58 PM
Quote from: Socalrappy700 on June 30, 2008, 01:00:05 PM
Mark told me last time I talked to him.
That is incorrect information, I know for a fact that they are contracting it out ???
ok, guess mark is lying. :confused:
Quote from: Colorado700R on June 30, 2008, 12:51:44 PM
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 12:49:15 PM
CNC is da chit :clap:... Who do you think is doing there machining for them???? I would say unless they got the CNC equitment they are contracting out thru RE
RE?
I'm sure they are contracting out. Maybe I'll do some digging.
Racers Edge there Shlow-mo :lol:
coming from our moderator :'( :lol:
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 01:01:58 PM
Quote from: Socalrappy700 on June 30, 2008, 01:00:05 PM
Mark told me last time I talked to him.
That is incorrect information, I know for a fact that they are contracting it out ???
Thats funny that the suposid "best" raptor performance shop is contracting out there work. :mad: :mad:
Laugh all you want :lol: :lol:think what you want. I know and heard it from the goats mouth! :grin_nod:
Just to add they are not doing it thru RE they are having someone else do the work :thumbs:
Quote from: kyledvor61 on June 30, 2008, 01:05:34 PM
Quote from: Colorado700R on June 30, 2008, 12:51:44 PM
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 12:49:15 PM
CNC is da chit :clap:... Who do you think is doing there machining for them???? I would say unless they got the CNC equitment they are contracting out thru RE
RE?
I'm sure they are contracting out. Maybe I'll do some digging.
Racers Edge there Shlow-mo :lol:
coming from our moderator :'( :lol:
You got it pal :P... Just because they are a moderator means they are always right ::)
CNC can be good but it all starts with a hand job :jaw:. I'm a guy that likes to hot rod all of my toys, I can say I did it! 8) But the things that I can't do I job out just like the big shops...
Quote from: Dales396LT4 on June 30, 2008, 01:33:41 PM
CNC can be good but it all starts with a hand job :jaw:. I'm a guy that likes to hot rod all of my toys, I can say I did it! 8) But the things that I can't do I job out just like the big shops...
doesnt everything start with a handjob? thats the only way krandall got te be a moderator...
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 01:14:46 PM
Quote from: kyledvor61 on June 30, 2008, 01:05:34 PM
Quote from: Colorado700R on June 30, 2008, 12:51:44 PM
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 12:49:15 PM
CNC is da chit :clap:... Who do you think is doing there machining for them???? I would say unless they got the CNC equitment they are contracting out thru RE
RE?
I'm sure they are contracting out. Maybe I'll do some digging.
Racers Edge there Shlow-mo :lol:
coming from our moderator :'( :lol:
You got it pal :P... Just because they are a moderator means they are always right ::)
:confused: My coment was aimed to Randy for not understanding the RE refrence :thumbs:
Quote from: Dales396LT4 on June 30, 2008, 01:33:41 PM
CNC can be good but it all starts with a hand job :jaw:. I'm a guy that likes to hot rod all of my toys, I can say I did it! 8) But the things that I can't do I job out just like the big shops...
Not discredititing the head by any means... Thats just a machine, its the specs that matter :thumbs: I could care less if they contract or not..Just stating the facts! :thumbs:
Quote from: kyledvor61 on June 30, 2008, 01:35:51 PM
Quote from: Dales396LT4 on June 30, 2008, 01:33:41 PM
CNC can be good but it all starts with a hand job :jaw:. I'm a guy that likes to hot rod all of my toys, I can say I did it! 8) But the things that I can't do I job out just like the big shops...
doesnt everything start with a handjob? thats the only way krandall got te be a moderator...
bahahahaha :rofl: :lol: :lol: :grin_nod:
The specs acutally dont mean DICK!! Its how it does on the real world. The head could flow some crazy numbers and not do a damn thing on the dyno. Its all about proper parts on the proper machine.
Quote from: Colorado700R on June 30, 2008, 01:49:52 PM
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 01:14:46 PM
Quote from: kyledvor61 on June 30, 2008, 01:05:34 PM
Quote from: Colorado700R on June 30, 2008, 12:51:44 PM
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 12:49:15 PM
CNC is da chit :clap:... Who do you think is doing there machining for them???? I would say unless they got the CNC equitment they are contracting out thru RE
RE?
I'm sure they are contracting out. Maybe I'll do some digging.
Racers Edge there Shlow-mo :lol:
coming from our moderator :'( :lol:
You got it pal :P... Just because they are a moderator means they are always right ::)
:confused: My coment was aimed to Randy for not understanding the RE refrence :thumbs:
That last comment was directed towards kyledvor61 ... I was talking about socal
Quote from: preddy08 on June 30, 2008, 02:03:15 PM
The specs acutally dont mean DICK!! Its how it does on the real world. The head could flow some crazy numbers and not do a damn thing on the dyno. Its all about proper parts on the proper machine.
haha you said dick :clap: :rofl:
Quote from: preddy08 on June 30, 2008, 02:03:15 PM
The specs acutally dont mean DICK!! Its how it does on the real world. The head could flow some crazy numbers and not do a damn thing on the dyno. Its all about proper parts on the proper machine.
??? I wasn't tallking flowing #'s specs. I do think flow #'s do mean dick but I guess you can have that opinion. I do agree that its the real dyno #'s that matter most though :thumbs:
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: preddy08 on June 30, 2008, 02:03:15 PM
The specs acutally dont mean DICK!! Its how it does on the real world. The head could flow some crazy numbers and not do a damn thing on the dyno. Its all about proper parts on the proper machine.
??? I wasn't tallking flowing #'s specs. I do think flow #'s do mean dick but I guess you can have that opinion. I do agree that its the real dyno #'s that matter most though :thumbs:
Anyone who knows there foot from there ass will tell you you can over port any head out there. You can minipulate (SP?) the head to flow like crazy, but in the real world it will put out poor power.
Just wait till kennys AV head come out.............THAT SHIT IS TIGHT :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Quote from: preddy08 on June 30, 2008, 02:26:50 PM
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: preddy08 on June 30, 2008, 02:03:15 PM
The specs acutally dont mean DICK!! Its how it does on the real world. The head could flow some crazy numbers and not do a damn thing on the dyno. Its all about proper parts on the proper machine.
??? I wasn't tallking flowing #'s specs. I do think flow #'s do mean dick but I guess you can have that opinion. I do agree that its the real dyno #'s that matter most though :thumbs:
Anyone who knows there foot from there ass will tell you you can over port any head out there. You can minipulate (SP?) the head to flow like crazy, but in the real world it will put out poor power.
Just wait till kennys AV head come out.............THAT SHIT IS TIGHT :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Av are def the tightest IMO :clap: :rofl:
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 02:37:21 PM
Quote from: preddy08 on June 30, 2008, 02:26:50 PM
Quote from: J-HILT on June 30, 2008, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: preddy08 on June 30, 2008, 02:03:15 PM
The specs acutally dont mean DICK!! Its how it does on the real world. The head could flow some crazy numbers and not do a damn thing on the dyno. Its all about proper parts on the proper machine.
??? I wasn't tallking flowing #'s specs. I do think flow #'s do mean dick but I guess you can have that opinion. I do agree that its the real dyno #'s that matter most though :thumbs:
Anyone who knows there foot from there ass will tell you you can over port any head out there. You can minipulate (SP?) the head to flow like crazy, but in the real world it will put out poor power.
Just wait till kennys AV head come out.............THAT SHIT IS TIGHT :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Av are def the tightest IMO :clap: :rofl:
Ah, so you know the ways of the AV young grasshoppa.............. :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja:
hahaha Kenny told me ALLL about the AV Saturday when I talked to him :rofl:
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 09:34:25 AM
Quote from: NaturalRaptor on June 30, 2008, 09:23:31 AM
It was sad to here Bo stopped head porting. :( But he is doing the right thing for his family. :clap:
I sure hope the CNC goes down. That kinda high, IMHO.
It was REALLY sad. Oh well. You have to keep the family happy :)
I am one of the lucky few that got ported by Bo, but I agree, For the average person looking to get P&P'd the prices are to high.
That's why Bo rocked!
I think Bo had gone to $450 + parts right? I do the CNC for $500, and it has a substantial amount of port reshaping compared to Bo's, and it has a full BB Contour (CNC) valve job to boot.......Seems like a good deal to me ???
Quote from: Kenny on June 30, 2008, 03:38:23 PM
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 09:34:25 AM
Quote from: NaturalRaptor on June 30, 2008, 09:23:31 AM
It was sad to here Bo stopped head porting. :( But he is doing the right thing for his family. :clap:
I sure hope the CNC goes down. That kinda high, IMHO.
It was REALLY sad. Oh well. You have to keep the family happy :)
I am one of the lucky few that got ported by Bo, but I agree, For the average person looking to get P&P'd the prices are to high.
That's why Bo rocked!
I think Bo had gone to $450 + parts right? I do the CNC for $500, and it has a substantial amount of port reshaping compared to Bo's, and it has a full BB Contour (CNC) valve job to boot.......Seems like a good deal to me ???
That was including parts................I think???
Mine will include parts if you use the stock valvetrain. If you go to oversize, I have the absolute best valves in the business(Ferrea) with custom tulip angles for $35 ea and custom dual valvesprings (Ferrea, again) for $185. That's a good deal on custom parts that I am charging the same or less $$ than off the shelf Kibblewhite. 8)
Oh yeah, mine get new guides as well. :thumbs:
I will tell you guys....Affordable CNC equipment goes for about $150,000 for 5-axis head work and about 60-75,000 for the valve machine. I can't imagine anyone being dumb enough to buy the equipment to just do Raptor and YFZ's. The total tally would be, $210,000 +. That would be 420 heads at $500 if you never had to replace cutters or service the machine. So let's say the average dealer could sell 21 heads a year....It will take 20 yrs to break even.....Now tack on any kind of finance charges and replacement of cutters. Definitely not a good business move,even at 1/2-1/3 of that cost, unless you can contract work out for other companies. 8)
Quote from: Krandall on June 30, 2008, 08:33:48 AM
I like the CNC option because it's HARD for a computer to screw things up. But how come It costs more than a person manually doing it? ???
There are so many variables involved with a CNC other than just the finished product that people don't realize. A mid grade 5-axis machine for doing head work would easily start out in the low to mid $100's ( that's thousands of dollars ) than add perishable tooling, fixtures and a good cam system your easily near $200K. I've been working with them daily now for the past 20 years and have a pretty good idea how it all works. A computer or a CNC is very effective in knowlageable hands but can be a toilet to the inexperienced ( crap in / crap out ). Believe it or not they will actually do what you tell them to do....lol
That is a fact. There are lot's of cylinder heads out there with sharpened divider walls, improper bowl and short turn shape.......I only know of 3 companies using the same custom tulip angle, and the list goes on. That is part of the CNC curse....It will make exactly the same poorly designed head all day long. Another problem we have is the lack of direct comparisons. The fear of random "shootout" testing kind of keeps the automotive industry fairly honest, but honesty is sorely lacking in the ATV industry. I have seen advertised flow numbers with "X" size valves that would require a flow coefficient that NASCAR and Indy heads could only aspire to. These claims are simply untrue. :confused:
Hey, keep Trinty Racing out of this !!!
:rofl:
Quote from: Colorado700R on July 02, 2008, 01:57:57 PM
Hey, keep Trinty Racing out of this !!!
:rofl:
Possibly them. But not who he's refering to :help:
Quote from: Krandall on July 02, 2008, 01:59:36 PM
Quote from: Colorado700R on July 02, 2008, 01:57:57 PM
Hey, keep Trinty Racing out of this !!!
:rofl:
Possibly them. But not who he's refering to :help:
I know :thumbs:
That was just a broad statement fellas. I'm not pointing the finger in any particular direction. 8)
Quote from: Kenny on July 02, 2008, 02:26:27 PM
That was just a broad statement fellas. I'm not pointing the finger in any particular direction. 8)
*crickets chirping*
you don't need to man, I've been on the phone with you this week plenty of times. :lol:
Quote from: Krandall on July 02, 2008, 02:34:38 PM
Quote from: Kenny on July 02, 2008, 02:26:27 PM
That was just a broad statement fellas. I'm not pointing the finger in any particular direction. 8)
*crickets chirping*
you don't need to man, I've been on the phone with you this week plenty of times. :lol:
Same here...........And get a paintball gun for that hippy colony, you'll teach them the reasons for war :lol:
Quote from: Colorado700R on July 02, 2008, 02:53:07 PM
Quote from: Krandall on July 02, 2008, 02:34:38 PM
Quote from: Kenny on July 02, 2008, 02:26:27 PM
That was just a broad statement fellas. I'm not pointing the finger in any particular direction. 8)
*crickets chirping*
you don't need to man, I've been on the phone with you this week plenty of times. :lol:
Same here...........And get a paintball gun for that hippy colony, you'll teach them the reasons for war :lol:
all you need is a megadeth cd :grin_nod:
Okay, let me handle it this way; There are lots of less than great heads on the market, but nobody has me as pissed off as bad as the guys I have been raising hell about. :lol: