if u were to buy new skat extremes would u go with a 20x10x10 9 paddle or 22x11x10 9 paddle for a raptor putting in 60rwhp :help: :help: :help: :help:
22's, 20" sand tires on a raptor turn it into a ditch witch
I disagree. But if you will be spending all your time drag racing, I totally agree. :lol:
It's not even about drag racing, your bike develops allot of Tq if you slow or stop on an incline with 20" tires, they will dig in.
Not all sand is equal for sure, but IMO a 22" star or hauler (whatever your preference) works better in the four states I've ridden in than a 20" tire for a 3 mod or better Raptor
I dont have that issue. If you give it plenty of gas, its fine. But if you try to chug out of the sand slow...it can happen. But Ive done it with 22" tires AND 20" tires the same. Then again...I am nowhere near the hp any of you are making. :lol:
If your engine is big and powerful, My advice may be useless :lol:
Most of my dislike for 22" honestly, is how they look. Makes raptors look like blasters. :)
i ride oregon dunes and had 20inch hauler but now im making 60hp and 50tq like look of 20" but everyone is saying 22 10 8
I agree with Aaron.
22" has a bigger footprint to aid in flotation.
Function 1st looks 2nd.
Seggy needs to weigh in for your area. But it seems you guys in the Northwest run allot more paddle and tires than in other areas.
That being said, I do know that 22's will be better in treeshoots without a doubt.
Aaron
I would get 21x12x8 7pdl for 60hp general duning.
I've got 8 pdl for my 80hp and I think its a bit much.
Bert hates me :lol:
I'm not saying form over function. I'm saying total package. For what they cost, they beter have it all.... And the 22" tires really didnt do all that much for me. At the end of the day, I really dont think theres a huge difference between them if youre all around duning. Racing...sure. Just don't over paddle... :thumbs:
so what im getting out of this is all preference in opinion to what i should do... So lets reword this if you already had some wheels that were 10" would u sell those to get 8" or keep the 10" and go with a normal 20x10x10
Quote from: devious700rSE on April 19, 2011, 04:34:09 PM
so what im getting out of this is all preference in opinion to what i should do... So lets reword this if you already had some wheels that were 10" would u sell those to get 8" or keep the 10" and go with a normal 20x10x10
Yes, sell the 10" wheel. 10" rims just flat out suck. They dont allow any side wall bite, no ballon effect. Unless your going with a 22"+ (74ro) hauler I do not like anything over a 9" wheel. I had 20x11x9 sand stars and they are great for blasting the dunes, but when it came time to hill climb, or drag race the kinda sucked.
Also a 8" wheel with a 22"ish tire will offer more rim protection, allowing you to get by with a .125 wheel. I ran a set of 22" haulers on .125 wheels and never bent a wheel even with plenty of jumping and trail carving.
If you order a set of 21x12x8 haulers from RMATV they come in right a 67ro which is about 20" tall.
how long is your swinger ?
I'd say ideally 22x11x8. Maybe 21x12x8 if you find a deal. I personally wouldn't consider 20's unless you're only going once.
as far as paddles, if you're looking at extremes I'd do maybe a 7 paddle for a stock swinger, maybe 8's for a +2/+4, and 9's for a +6
stock swinger
Quote from: PeelsSE2 on April 19, 2011, 04:01:53 PM
Bert hates me :lol:
I'm not saying form over function. I'm saying total package. For what they cost, they beter have it all.... And the 22" tires really didnt do all that much for me. At the end of the day, I really dont think theres a huge difference between them if youre all around duning. Racing...sure. Just don't over paddle... :thumbs:
Hate is a Strong word Peels
Its just a general dislike for Iowania's :cheer: :lol:
20" tires will dig ditches agreed?
Quote from: Bert on April 20, 2011, 03:45:32 AM
Quote from: PeelsSE2 on April 19, 2011, 04:01:53 PM
Bert hates me :lol:
I'm not saying form over function. I'm saying total package. For what they cost, they beter have it all.... And the 22" tires really didnt do all that much for me. At the end of the day, I really dont think theres a huge difference between them if youre all around duning. Racing...sure. Just don't over paddle... :thumbs:
Hate is a Strong word Peels
Its just a general dislike for Iowania's :cheer: :lol:
20" tires will dig ditches agreed?
vs a 22...yes.
Depends on bike, rider weight/skill, and terrain too...but yes my 20s did dig a lot of ditches at LS haha.
You could always get sand stars :thumbs:
Love my sandstars.. No review yet.. But I just purchased 22's (upgraded from the 20" ss)
:)
Yes, 20" can indeed dig in if you stop and try and get going again without good rotational speed, 10" rims only make it worse. But they hook up great, you just need to ride differently with 20" than you do a big balonga 22".
My 20x10-10 10 paddle skat extremes. I originally took this picture when my father stopped and sat around for a few minutes on some relatively flat area. I used it to post online to sell the tires, I just happened to notice it does a good job of showing what others mean when they say the 20" tires will "dig in".
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/Maddog56/Bull%20Gap/tires.jpg)
"20" can indeed dig in if you stop and try and get going again without good rotational speed"
well put M-Dizzle-as usual. Thats my point. I have ALMOST ZERO problems with diggin ditches. UNLESS.....I am a sissy on the throttle from a dead stop...You have to gas it. I had that same problem when I tried 22" though... My buddy uses 20" edges on 10" rims which on paper sounds dumb, but works like a charm on a banshee with the mega revs those things give out :lol:
The point of a sand paddle is different from that of a dirt tire. Paddles pick up the sand and move it, vs on a dirt tire, pushing against it.
will a plane fly if it takes off on a treadmill?
helicopter on a turn table?
Quote from: Krandall on April 20, 2011, 10:21:28 AM
will a plane fly if it takes off on a treadmill?
LOL krandall...LOL :lol:
do bears shit in the woods?
Took the 20" sand stars out this weekend to SL. Dug in twice, when i stopped on the peak of test hill where I occasionally even dig in with the 22" skat traks. It's not the steepest set of dunes in the world or the tallest but they performed up to and in excess of my expectations, and as such I will continue to recommend tires based on their intended use instead of adopting any minimum size requirement.
Btw, it wasn't so long ago that 21" was the preferred size, until skat ran out of 21" carcasses and everyone was forced to switch to 22". Now 22" is recommended heavily based on familiarity of the 22" skat carcass and compared to user's first set of 20" paddles which are commonly cheap crap like geckos.
nice post. 20" paddles have little problem getting around. If you park facing uphill, and try to casually climb the hill, yeah youll get stuck, but chances are, you will with any tire, unless you hav a zillion paddles and an engine strong enough to turn them. (neither of which is an issue for me) :lol: you gotta give it hell if you do that. I have had no other trouble with 20" paddles than that. :thumbs:
edit: a little smelly bird landed on my shoulder and said I was wrong this evening :lol:
just adding a few things...as this is all subjective based on opinion, and experience...
Ive done some freaky hillclimbs..where you gun it and have to pray to allah. Only got stuck once with my cheap little sand paddles :lol: And have tried other tires...not a huge difference... except for 10 paddle glider haulers, made sand feel like pavement :lol:
I will re-re-re clarify: I will not say 20" stars are better than haulers... All myself and MD are saying as that they'll do for the price. And do it quite well.. But remember: our viewpoint is based on SIlver lake and little sahara. ANd I only see sand once a year....
so if you ride mainly sand..make good power, and enjoy hillclimbing over other riding and dont mind the extra cost....my view really has no bearing on your purchase... since I fit none of those categories. :lol: ;)
you happy Aaron? :bird: :rofl:
If he wants to hit treeshoots in oregon. Its as much about ground clearance as it is type or count of paddles. I just want devious to enjoy all the sand open to him, and not be stuck for hours in those awesome tree shots.
Ive seen both you and MD rock the hell out of your 20s without issue. So I won't dare say they don't work well for where you ride. ;)
Did I mention 22x11x8 8 paddles ? Cause, yeah...
:popcorn:
how's bout you pay my way to oregon, so's I can test this out for myself? ;) :kiss:
:rofl:
and..down at pismo...it was different sand too. really heavy. stock tires even did "ok"
I sincerely wish I could.
I fear that you think we're trying to simply pass the Kool-Aid from the racing community that you NEED a 22" hauler style tire for all applications. That's not it at all. This is based on my own, people I ride with, and others who ride similar stuff experiences.
Walden and Oregon are the only two locations I know of with a significant amount of treeshoots. I have allot of experience at the former, and I asked Seg to chime in because he has allot of experience at the latter.
Treeshooting is a blast! And I have no doubts that you guys would LOVE doing it. (4gunz is hooked for life after 1 trip to an 800 acre sandbox LOL).
But there is also a different set of requirements than normal duning. Deep sand ruts, from other quads that hit the shoot before you, can hang you up on the skid plate taking all or just enough weight on your tires to cause you to trench in. So a taller tire (without getting crazy) will help you because the distance between bottom of the skid plate to the sand will be more when you're in those ruts. Also, as you both explained momentum is key....in treeshoots you don't always have that option (damn trees LOL) 120 degree or greater turns in the shoot now wider than the quad are not uncommon, so you have to be able to get traction and regain the MO you can at each corner exist to ascend the climb.
We also have what I call "roach motel shoots" because you may check in, but may never check out :lol: These shoots have one entrance, and no other exist. if it's too much for your setup....you're stuck and nothing out there will "pull" you out besides maybe a truck and a LONG ASS winch. 4gunz found one of these last time he was in Walden and ended up walking for a mile to find us in the dark.....in Cougar heaven :lol: (it took preddy, Troy, Gunz, and I ~ an hour to get him out :crazy: )The problem is that you can't tell how nasty they are till you in it because of the trees and foliage shrouding the lower parts of the shoot from the top....again a tall tire will give you a better chance of avoiding this.
I have some 20" stars that I will ask to put on someone's 3 mod at Walden and take some pics and video so you can see what I mean.
Aaron
difference of opinion, and experience.
my argument: performance as seen from a cost, vs use perspective.
I ride very little, do not like spending tons on it for that reason.
not: is it the absolute best tire??....for that, my point is useless.
and for some reason, I though devious lived in Pennsylvania. Dont ask me why :rofl:
Quote from: PeelsSE2 on May 24, 2011, 11:45:01 AM
difference of opinion, and experience.
my argument: performance as seen from a cost, vs use perspective.
I ride very little, do not like spending tons on it for that reason.
not: is it the absolute best tire??....for that, my point is useless.
and for some reason, I though devious lived in Pennsylvania. Dont ask me why :rofl:
:rofl: that's funny shit....
and like i said, your tires work great for you, seen it first hand ;)
Yep the whole basis of my argument was based on thinking he was only going to oregon for a trip. ;) and for that, I have a valid point of view....
Ill take my koolaid now :lol:
Quote from: PeelsSE2 on May 24, 2011, 11:57:23 AM
Yep the whole basis of my argument was based on thinking he was only going to oregon for a trip. ;) and for that, I have a valid point of view....
Ill take my koolaid now :lol:
Mr. Ceresh prepare it special for you :rofl:
20's will get you around just fine in most cases, and are much cheaper
A 400ex will get you around just fine in most cases as well, and again - much cheaper.
But you bought a Raptor, not a 400ex. Why ? It costs more, but it's better. You put a Sparks pipe on it, why not an Yosh ? It costs more, but it's much better. NO REASON to go with 20's at that point IMO. They cost less, but they perform less well. Why get the best of everything then take away all that potential with a pair of 20" tires ?
That's like buying a Turbo Busa and putting a governor on it is the way I see it.
I'm talking about the proper application of a tire for it's intended use.
For this member, and his intended use in tree shots the 22" is a better choice.
But to say that a 20" skat is fundamentally inferior to a 22" skat and its only benefit is a lower cost (which depends a lot more on paddle count than carcass size) is not something I can agree with. A 20" paddle is not a lesser quality or performing tire by virtue of it's size in all applications. Bigger and more expensive is not always better.
I don't disagree. Application and intended use are more important than anything.
I have been off the fourms a while just caught up on the thread and by no means did i want to cause any arguments... with that said I bought 21x7x8 9 paddle extremes for the trip to raptor rally in winchester and my stator went out on DAY1 :mad: :mad: but what do you do and i love the tires for the 1/2 hour i got to use them 1 trip up banshee hill and thats it :lol: so if anyone is down we will be planning another trip in july or august to go again if anyone is interested let me know and thank you to everyone that helped in my decision all i need now is a new sproket
No arguments here, just good discussion. Glad you're happy with your tire choice
Glad to hear you liked what you bought.
This is a common topic, and I'm sure this thread will be read by others looking for input. Hopefully the discussion helps them as well.
these so called arguments are why forums are here. Multiple points of view on same subject. We all learn something...or we just keep being cheapskates just like me. :lol:
Sucks a$$ your bike died!!! :mad:
Exactly! I learned than when/if I ever go to ride anywhere east of the Rockies in the sand: all I need to bring is some girly paddles :rofl:
Quote from: SegKast on May 27, 2011, 11:22:50 AM
Exactly! I learned than when/if I ever go to ride anywhere east of the Rockies in the sand: all I need to bring is some girly paddles :rofl:
:bird:
nobody said the molded 20" paddles are the best...just that they'll do in a pinch.
jeesh. forum people...can't live with em, can't ban em. :rofl:
Quote from: devious700rSE on May 25, 2011, 06:22:01 PM
so if anyone is down we will be planning another trip in july or august to go again if anyone is interested let me know and thank you to everyone that helped in my decision all i need now is a new sproket
I missed the rally because the guy that built my swingarm is a :homo: Im still pissed about it so if anyone is planning on getting together to ride winchester im down.
LOL sorry Peelsy, I couldn't help it :)
This statement:
Quote from: SegKast on May 24, 2011, 02:26:03 PM
I don't disagree. Application and intended use are more important than anything.
Seems to be in direct contradiction to this one:
Quote from: SegKast on May 24, 2011, 12:10:32 PM
NO REASON to go with 20's at that point IMO. They cost less, but they perform less well. Why get the best of everything then take away all that potential with a pair of 20" tires ?
You say there's no reason to have 20" tires, so either you were only speaking to this one member and this one situation or you mean that every conceivable application or intended use for a Raptor in the sand results in 22" paddles performing better than 20". The latter is what I was disagreeing with.
Peels I am willing to say there are scenarios where I'd recommend a 20" molded paddle over a 22" bologna tire. Then again I'm often at odds with those in the mountain and pacific time zones as our experiences vary greatly.
Yes, Segkast. Please explain how you assessed the riders location, read his posts, and then you provided the best advice you could based upon your own expierences...??? :lol:
Of course he was speaking to the op...as was I.
I fail to see your motive and tact in last post. Since the op is satisfied with his purchase, and that was clearly who seg was addressing.
Perhaps your goal is to validate your position in this debate. If so, I recommend providing facts to support your argument for other riders who happen upon this post, to make a more educated decision.
In example...a 20" will maintain the stock rake front to rear, and therefore feel much more balanced in a jump and landing vice a 22" tire. Also the bouciness of a 22" tire will be much diffrent on whoops compared a 20", and may require some suspension adjustments to get near the feel of the 20.
There's also side hilling cg, wheelie balance, and basic turning stability.
No one ever stated 22" were superior in every condition, or for every rider. Just for the one in the op.
If you are going to advocate something, provide useful info to support your position. Otherwise its just opinionated bickering.
Quote from: Mad Dog on May 28, 2011, 04:43:25 PM
This statement:
Quote from: SegKast on May 24, 2011, 02:26:03 PM
I don't disagree. Application and intended use are more important than anything.
Seems to be in direct contradiction to this one:
Quote from: SegKast on May 24, 2011, 12:10:32 PM
NO REASON to go with 20's at that point IMO. They cost less, but they perform less well. Why get the best of everything then take away all that potential with a pair of 20" tires ?
You say there's no reason to have 20" tires, so either you were only speaking to this one member and this one situation or you mean that every conceivable application or intended use for a Raptor in the sand results in 22" paddles performing better than 20". The latter is what I was disagreeing with.
Peels I am willing to say there are scenarios where I'd recommend a 20" molded paddle over a 22" bologna tire. Then again I'm often at odds with those in the mountain and pacific time zones as our experiences vary greatly.
Ah, well let me clarify. I'm specifically talking to the member who posted the question. :thumbs: If you think 20's are a better tire for him, I think you're out of your mind. That said, I've also never ridden on a pair of 12 paddle 20's either :shrug: I'm sure they hookup a lot better than the 8 paddles I've ridden on, but still a lot of the issue here for me is clearance, which the 20's don't provide no matter how many paddles you squeeze on em.
I would be curious to hear in what situations you would say a 20' molded tire is a better choice on a raptor though. Obviously, if you're not riding full sand, or sand with a lot of crap in it, a molded tire might be a better choice bases on durability alone, but outside of riding somewhere where that is an issue I don't see where the molded tire gives you an advantage. And please, I don't wanna hear anything about not being able to turn a Skat paddle, that argument is rediculous.
would your advice to this guy REALLY be to buy a set of 20" tires ??? ? If not, WHY are we arguing this point ?
Peels didn't immediately agree that 22" was the absolute best choice. As more information about the OP was revealed and after the issue was discussed it became clear that indeed 22" did fit this particular member's needs, a point I conceded previously. At no point in this thread have I ever suggested any tire for the OP, let alone suggest a 20". Seg if you had indeed read my posts, you'd know the answer to the first part of your question and perhaps wouldn't have needed to make the comment that I'm out of my mind.
My only reason for ever replying to this thread in the first place was to address comments made by bert and others regarding "digging trenches". When such comments were made I replied to share my view on them. I then revived the thread in May to expand upon my previous comments about 20" tires digging in because I had made a trip to SL with some 20" sandstars and could validate Peels' experience. This was the purpose of the last line of my last post, to let peels know that although the OP is better off with larger tires in my view I agreed that a 20" molded paddle can be preferred in some situations.
My last reply, Colorado, was made because I wasn't clear whether Seg was speaking directly to the OP or in general, a question that was further clouded when he made his joke. I wanted to explain that I agreed with Seg for the OP, and my previous comments about disagreement were only if he was talking about all situations. I was trying to clear things up and instead you and Seg have apparently viewed it as an attack. This was not my intention but I can see how it may have been taken as such and I apologize for any misunderstanding.
No biggy. Glad it's cleared up.
Quote from: devious700rSE on April 19, 2011, 12:16:29 PM
if u were to buy new skat extremes would u go with a 20x10x10 9 paddle or 22x11x10 9 paddle for a raptor putting in 60rwhp :help: :help: :help: :help:
So what did you go with & have you tried them out???
:lol: never took anything as an attack :shrug: I don't expect everyone to agree with me, and hardly take offense to anyone voicing a difference of opinion. Never meant any of my comments as an attack either, I apologize if it came off that way. Didn't mean to offend anyone with the 'girly tire' joke :lol: It's a pretty common joke out west here, I guess it doesn't really translate well lol. Hell, I get shit from the guys running 25's all the time about my 'girly' 22" 10 paddles :rofl:
I must have misunderstood your posts, I read them as if they were to the OP as mine were. My fault :beer:
Obviously, no one tire is going to be right for all applications. I think that pretty much goes without saying, so I didn't really think it was something I needed to clarify...
Not trying to argue here, but I'm still curious in what situations a 20'' molded is the best choice for a raptor ? Are we just talking about riding somewhere where durability of a buffed tire would be a concern ? That's about the only circumstance I can see where they're going to be the best choice.
Now, when you start factoring in price and amount of time you'll actually spend in the sand every year (if not much), the less expensive molded tires start to get more attractive and might be a better choice. I realize Skats might not be the best 'bang for your buck' for someone on a big 3 bike who sees sand maybe once every year or less.
I'll send you a PM, I'd rather not discuss this thread any further.
Jesus, a tire discussion went to PM... I'm out for a bit, this shit's all too serious for me lol :wave:
lol way too serious.
there are no right/wrong comments here.
only differing opinions. And...opinions are based on experiences. Thus... I posted my experiences AND opinions.
my opinion:
I like things to be a great value, not just the "best" Tires are a big part of that equasion. Durable, cheap, and do they do the job okay...? those are the questions I ask. In that order, when I purchase parts.
I get up the same hills as everyone I've ridden with. WIth little to no trouble. And my tires were $50 for the pair mounted on rims. AND I beat the shit out of them, and theyre still rockin. Hell, i had fun getting up dunes on stock yamaha tires.... LOL
WIll my tires win the race to the top? nope...but i don't care, ill still get there, and wheelie off the top just for fun.
See? my "i'm here for the fun" opinion differs ALOT from most of yours, but it still counts all the same. ;)
Shh peels, we're not supposed to talk about anything but the OP. Stop derailing the thread.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Mad Dog on May 31, 2011, 04:00:20 PM
Shh peels, we're not supposed to talk about anything but the OP. Stop derailing the thread.
derailing is my specialty. :nod:
Quote from: Bert on May 29, 2011, 10:38:45 AM
Quote from: devious700rSE on April 19, 2011, 12:16:29 PM
if u were to buy new skat extremes would u go with a 20x10x10 9 paddle or 22x11x10 9 paddle for a raptor putting in 60rwhp :help: :help: :help: :help:
So what did you go with & have you tried them out???
I went with 21x11x8 9 paddle they work a little too good but i love it i wheelie everywhere
Never under estimate the power of a wheelie 8)
Quote from: Bert on June 04, 2011, 11:20:03 PM
Never under estimate the power of a wheelie 8)
wiser words have never been spoken. :thumbs: