Dropped off the rappy tuesday night and was told it should be back today. Last dyno trip was 71hp, what do you think it will be now? Things I've changed, gapless rings, Sparks exhaust, DL programed Dyna, Bos updated head port, New larger Accel spark plug wire (indexed spark plug, got board...lol), Kennys evac valve. I'm sure hoping for 80HP!!!
Seeing the HP difference between the HMF and Sparks makes me think 80 is with in reach.
Keep in mind the bike litterly has a total of a minute run time. So once it breaks in I should see another couple HP.
And more bad news! Stock injector is maxed out :mad:
I don't see anything that increased compression...... So I say you will see no more than 3-4hp gain.
I say 74-75hp and around 52TQ
My guess.... 75-77.
Maybe get some duals on that beast and youll see 80 :lol:
Quote from: rutcutter on February 20, 2009, 09:03:38 AM
I don't see anything that increased compression...... So I say you will see no more than 3-4hp gain.
I say 74-75hp and around 52TQ
going from a crappy single (like I did) to a sparks alone is 3-4HP. Theres alot more to Hp then added compression.
The stock injector is maxed out now and its sitting around 15:1 at 75HP
Something doesn't seem right about that injector, it should be able to support your mods easily.
Quote from: troywcc on February 20, 2009, 09:28:33 AM
Something doesn't seem right about that injector, it should be able to support your mods easily.
Sounds like anything above 75 horse or so you'll get above 80% duty cycle and it will start acting real irratic (SP?).
When I calculate it I usually use a .5 BSFC to error on the safe side. Also it seems like you are doing the math correctly, but I believe that your hp numbers are based off crank hp. This also needs to be taken into account, as the crank hp numbers and wheel hp numbers are much different.
For example: with a stock injector at 80% duty cycle, 45 psi at the rail and a BSFC of .5 you will be at about 66 crank hp. However if you change it to a BSFC of .45 and all the other factors are the same the hp the stock injector can support is about 73.
With that being said this is crank hp, and not rwhp. I'm not sure what the drive train percentage loss is on a atv (as I have never dynoed an atv at the crank), but typically on a manual transmission the loss is anywhere from 15%-20%.
This means that with a 15% loss (which is more likely with motorcycles) and based on the numbers from above a stock injector with BSFC of .5 should handle about 56 rwhp, and a BSFC of .45 with stock injector is about 62 rwhp.
Now don't take these numbers as "if I hit 56 rwhp then my injector is maxed out." Because there are many factors involved, and elevation is the biggest. Just because the dyno shows you have 60 hp at the wheels, doesn't mean you are really making that at your elevation. Dyno's put in correction factors for humidity, elevation, temperature etc....
You are asking yourself, well how do I know when the stock injector is maxed out? Well while you're on the dyno if you hit 80% duty cycle this is about as much as you want to push an injector. Sure you can go way beyond 80% duty cycle (many people have), but this is bad for a number of reasons. The biggest being inconsistent fuel delivery, as the injectors needle begins to bounce. Also it is stressing the injector beyond the point it was designed to operate at. The biggest give away when an injector is maxed out is told while you are dyno tuning it.
As you push the duty cycle higher and higher you will hit a point where the injector acts "goofy." It will not increase fuel as much as it was before (say 5% increase on the fuel map does not yield an actual 5% delivery of fuel), or it will add a big burst of fuel suddenly. This means the injector is probably past the max duty cycle it can handle and as a result you see the inconsistencies.
There is your fuel injector lesson of the day!
Quote from: preddy08 on February 20, 2009, 09:21:40 AM
Quote from: rutcutter on February 20, 2009, 09:03:38 AM
I don't see anything that increased compression...... So I say you will see no more than 3-4hp gain.
I say 74-75hp and around 52TQ
going from a crappy single (like I did) to a sparks alone is 3-4HP. Theres alot more to Hp then added compression.
The stock injector is maxed out now and its sitting around 15:1 at 75HP
I'm just giving you my take. I don't think you'll see a 9+ hp gain.
Does the total seal gapless ring add 1 point to compression. ???
And injector.. I compare it to a hose w/ one of those standard copper nozzles on the end where you twist.. and you get a nice "V" shaped spray. and there's a point where it gets to a solid line basically " l " but if you keep opening it.. it starts spraying really weird it loses that fine line. and doens't flow as good as when it was doin the solid line :) (my theory anyways)
Quote from: Krandall on February 20, 2009, 09:40:04 AM
Quote from: preddy08 on February 20, 2009, 09:21:40 AM
Quote from: rutcutter on February 20, 2009, 09:03:38 AM
I don't see anything that increased compression...... So I say you will see no more than 3-4hp gain.
I say 74-75hp and around 52TQ
going from a crappy single (like I did) to a sparks alone is 3-4HP. Theres alot more to Hp then added compression.
The stock injector is maxed out now and its sitting around 15:1 at 75HP
I'm just giving you my take. I don't think you'll see a 9+ hp gain.
Does the total seal gapless ring add 1 point to compression. ???
And injector.. I compare it to a hose w/ one of those standard copper nozzles on the end where you twist.. and you get a nice "V" shaped spray. and there's a point where it gets to a solid line basically " l " but if you keep opening it.. it starts spraying really weird it loses that fine line. and doens't flow as good as when it was doin the solid line :) (my theory anyways)
Sorry, I ment to say 15:1AFR.
On v-8 chevy motors gapless rings are usually good for 20HP or so. Not to mention that I'm only running one ring....lol
Hmmm, I'm still sold on a mid 70's.. I'll give you up to 78hp. :thumbs:
YOu guys seriously crack me up. 80 hp! on a f**king trail bike. Lay off the meth preddy. :lol:
my guess is 75-76 on that dyno with a lot better/longer power band
what are u seeing as far as map #'s go..... in my map for my bike the largest numbers i see are "37" at about 8500 rpm ..........duty cycle remains around 60% well within the means of the stock injector......i very efficent running port job and combo of parts......
Quote from: DL700 on February 20, 2009, 10:31:09 AM
my guess is 75-76 on that dyno with a lot better/longer power band
what are u seeing as far as map #'s go..... in my map for my bike the largest numbers i see are "37" at about 8500 rpm ..........duty cycle remains around 60% well within the means of the stock injector......i very efficent running port job and combo of parts......
Thats what I think is weird. Not much has changed since my last build and now I'm maxing out the injector. I'm sitting at 75HP now with a 15 AFR.
Come to find out its puffin smoke on de-cell?? He says it does'nt look like coolant.
Color?
Alot of times when you go to a single ring setup or a low tension ring on decel it will create a vacuum and suck a little oil past the rings. That is why alot of engines (including v-8 chevys) with low tension rings will smoke on decel. Unless you run a vacuum pump and pull a vacuum on the oil pan. We have seen as much as 20 hp on a v-8 chevy just by pulling 20" of vacuum on the oil pan.
its the rings,,,,, mine does the same thing.... gets better when its warm,.........
Quote from: DL700 on February 20, 2009, 12:28:42 PM
its the rings,,,,, mine does the same thing.... gets better when its warm,.........
Calling you now.
One dollar Bob.
:lol:
~Brian
Hey Shawn I happen to have an extra motor laying around, want me to send it to you? It should make around 130 horsepower on that dyno :P
Preddy and I talked yesterday, hope its an easy fix but dont think it will be :(
75hp @ 15:1 A/F is pretty good since you was 71 before with a good tune, only change in the build being updated port and single to a better single.
Quote from: VelociRaptor on February 21, 2009, 07:46:35 AM
Preddy and I talked yesterday, hope its an easy fix but dont think it will be :(
75hp @ 15:1 A/F is pretty good since you was 71 before with a good tune, only change in the build being updated port and single to a better single.
Thanks for the support guys. I took it out on the road yesterday and beat the SNOT out of it and when I got back I was'nt even smoking. I just have to do something about this tune. It wants to pop on the top end, and the injector is maxed out. i think its cloged. So I'll have to try a new injector.
Which one are you gonna go with?
And.. What do you think is wrong that won't be an easy fix?
Quote from: VelociRaptor on February 21, 2009, 07:46:35 AM
Preddy and I talked yesterday, hope its an easy fix but dont think it will be :(
75hp @ 15:1 A/F is pretty good since you was 71 before with a good tune, only change in the build being updated port and single to a better single.
I wouldnt beat the snot out of it too much with the A/F being 15:1 ;)
The rings may have not seated(and possibly wont) or havent seated yet and just needed some cycle time to do so with that lapping compound.
Dont think that build will see 75hp or more again though until its torn down and redone. If it does you need to go to Vegas and win some money with that luck of yours :thumbs:
Quote from: VelociRaptor on February 21, 2009, 09:57:43 AM
I wouldnt beat the snot out of it too much with the A/F being 15:1 ;)
The rings may have not seated(and possibly wont) or havent seated yet and just needed some cycle time to do so with that lapping compound.
Dont think that build will see 75hp or more again though until its torn down and redone. If it does you need to go to Vegas and win some money with that luck of yours :thumbs:
He said that it does'nt get real lean until the upper RPMs. So I'm gonna see if I cant get the rings to seat. I'm also gonna go out with some unleaded gas to see if I cant get the injector to unplug its self. After an hour or so I'll see if I cant switch the map out to someone eleses map, and see what happens.
so any update with those maps i sent? u should be well within the range of a stock injector
Quote from: DL700 on February 22, 2009, 12:19:15 AM
so any update with those maps i sent? u should be well within the range of a stock injector
I'm headed out now to test it. I'll let you know.
How did it do Shawn? I took mine out and flogged it yesterday, ran strong but the damn head gasket didn't fix it's self. I figured if I let it sit long enough it would. The clutch is hard to pull when you're drag racing with the heavy duty springs and lockup in there.
Well. I put a couple Ozs of tranny fluid to clean out the injector, ran some VP110 unleaded, and took it for a ride with the map my guy came up with. Ran like shit. took it back to the truck and loaded a map DL700 sent me, took it for a ride and BAM!!!!!!!!! Thhis thing runs 95% of what it should. Has a slight mis at low RPMs, and seems to run a tad hot, but it runs freekin HARD!!!!!!!!! First headed for the drag strip and won one race and headed back and bliped the gas to do a wheelie and it came up INSTANTLY in 4th gear and got launched off. F'ed up the graphis kit, kill switch, stem, and grab bar, But oh well...lol. Did the drag race thing at the beginning of the day and at the end of the day and if anything it got faster as the day went on. The smoke is 97% gone, typical gapless ring decel smoke.
Now I'm trying to decide on what to do about the dyno guy. He cahrged me 100 bucks to put a tune that makes it run like shit!
QuoteNow I'm trying to decide on what to do about the dyno guy. He cahrged me 100 bucks to put a tune that makes it run like shit!
Kick his ass Sea Bass.
Quote from: Socalrappy700 on February 23, 2009, 11:13:04 AM
QuoteNow I'm trying to decide on what to do about the dyno guy. He cahrged me 100 bucks to put a tune that makes it run like shit!
Kick his ass Sea Bass.
I kinda want to hard ass him, but hes such a nice guy.
Quote from: preddy08 on February 23, 2009, 11:16:50 AM
Quote from: Socalrappy700 on February 23, 2009, 11:13:04 AM
QuoteNow I'm trying to decide on what to do about the dyno guy. He cahrged me 100 bucks to put a tune that makes it run like shit!
Kick his ass Sea Bass.
I kinda want to hard ass him, but hes such a nice guy.
Say you're sorry after the beat down.
Sounds like you had the same results with your local dyno that I had with mine. Mine was just real fat on the bottom. Running gapless rings also. I had the same results after DL700 tweaked my map. Glad to hear that it runs hard.
LOL, I'm glad you and the bike are OK, that power can sneak up on ya for sure. That's great that the bike is running hard and life is good. As far as the dyno guy goes I'd just tell him straight up he fucked you over and if he isn't willing to do anything about it you'll let everyone you know how you got screwed and who screwed you. A good reputation takes a long time to get and longer to keep, bad word travels very very fast. I'd let him choose how he wants to handle it.
.... BUY a dyno and tune it yourself :nana:
j/k..... but i would try to learn a bit of tuning technique if u can , rent the dyno for a few hrs and play with it
Quote from: preddy08 on February 23, 2009, 11:16:50 AM
Quote from: Socalrappy700 on February 23, 2009, 11:13:04 AM
QuoteNow I'm trying to decide on what to do about the dyno guy. He cahrged me 100 bucks to put a tune that makes it run like shit!
Kick his ass Sea Bass.
I kinda want to hard ass him, but hes such a nice guy.
He is a guy running a dyno..... There is no way he
wanted to give you a bad tune, even if that is how it turned out. He has started to rely on the A/F readings too much. It just got overwhelming trying to make info that was contradictory make sense. Take your bike back to him and share your findings in the nicest way you can, and let his own curiosity start his new learning curve. It is these experiences that will turn him into a first class tuner. Act like it is some info you just lucked across....... Let him know he is still the best dyno guy you have. Making him feel dumb will most certainly be a stumbling block in his learning curve. Treat him as you would want to be treated...... You will probably need him in the future, and it's in your best interest to help him be the best he can be while maintaining a good relationship. $100 dyno runs are hard to come across.....
As far as the rings go, that "Quickseat" powder is designed to seal rings very quickly. It is Molybdenum disulphide powder that will burnish into the cylinder wall and be a permanent dry film lubricant. It has no abrasive effects at all, it just builds up in the crosshatch and acts as though the cylinder walls have been finished super smooth, but is self sacrificing at the same time..... Good stuff. The Total seal rings will just get better and better as you ride. They are hands down the best you can use. The reason they smoke is because there is very little tension on all the phases the engine goes through, except compression, where they will use combustion pressure to seal tightly. Simply the best :)
Thanks Kenny, very wise words. I will try the nice route. I have a feeling that he'll simply say "huh, that weird" and leave it at that.
I was also wondering if that dry film is SOOOO slippery how can it make the rings seat faster?
if he says that then can you kick his ass?
Quote from: preddy08 on February 24, 2009, 08:42:00 AM
Thanks Kenny, very wise words. I will try the nice route. I have a feeling that he'll simply say "huh, that weird" and leave it at that.
I was also wondering if that dry film is SOOOO slippery how can it make the rings seat faster?
Hopefully it will sink in, even though he says that. The way you told me he has a different sniffer for each fuel type leads me to believe that he may be more concerned than he is letting on.....Even if he isn't, don't spend a bunch of negative energy when you could be out teaching kids to read, or somethin' cool like that. It's good for the soul :grin_nod:
Breaking in rings involves WAAAY more dynamics than a person would picture in his mind. Of course there are the peaks and valleys of the machine work. The peaks will have to wear down smooth while making a wear pattern that kinda locks the rings into their position, the valleys hold oil film to lubricate the skirt and rings as well as carrying away some heat. Every pore and crevice takes away from ring seal and the moly will help to fill these while leaving enough peaks to create an acceptable wear pattern, at the same time, moly is a very slick permanent dry film lube that burnishes in, and will withstand about 350,000 psi without damage. Meanwhile the rings will be "bedding" in the ring groove as well. I actually use a plateau finish that knocks most of the highest spots off the crosshatch. Very smooth finish. There is quite a bit of power in proper ring and cylinder wall prep. :thumbs:
I'll have to take it back to him one of these days and tell him I upgraded to the new AV port design. :rofl:
When I told him its has gapless rings he nodded his head, and said "yup yup" with a total blank stair on his face. He has no idea what those are.
Hell with it.... Go kick his ass then read to some kids :rofl:
Quote from: Kenny on February 24, 2009, 03:20:35 PM
Hell with it.... Go kick his ass then read to some kids :rofl:
Finally called him. I was nice and to the point. I told him that I used another map form some one ele and it ran almost spot on, and I ran the bike for a day and it quite smoking. He followed that up with "yea I've talked to a couple of guys that run those rings and they all say that it takes in upwards of 1500-2000 miles to break them in". I find that quite funny, because he quoted Total seals website...lol.
He did offer to try to re-tune it free of charge!
I'd say that worked out well..... He has already been searching info on the web for the rings..... the learning curve has begun :thumbs:
:rofl: WHAT A P.....
learn to tune it yourself.....worked for me :nana:
Quote from: DL700 on February 24, 2009, 11:48:18 PM
:rofl: WHAT A P.....
learn to tune it yourself.....worked for me :nana:
I tune a carbed bike with the best of them, but I just dont have the time to play with it.