What are the advantages/disadvantages between these two options?
Quote from: wobble on October 07, 2008, 09:34:54 AM
What are the advantages/disadvantages between these two options?
Me don't know :'( I think Preddy runs a Venom piston(single). Where's Kenny????
Preddy said it has less resistance so it gives more power and revs quicker, but you have to replace the rings, actually ring....that just sounds funny :lol:, more often. This makes sense, and I'm sure he's right. I was hoping for some further discussion on this. It seems a single ring set up is not that common. I was wonder why that is the case. :confused:
This is a CP single top ring piston. They offer all the advantages you stated. Yes they do require ring replacement more often....that's about the only down side, but if you get a total seal type ring then you will have a little longer longevity and have maximum ring seal with a much reduced leak down percentage IMHO.
(http://www.campbellenterprises.com/cp-pistons/cp-pistons-honda-crf-m2000a-pistons-top-300.JPG)
Let's see if I understand this correctly. So the single ring setup gives you more power. However, it wears quickly, thus increasing the leakdown. Therefore this power will begin to drop off at a much faster rate than running dual rings? ???
It seems that most of us frequent these forums in the constant search for more power. If the single ring setup gives that, then why don't more of us use it? There are alot of us here who tear down their engines every winter anway. :lol:
RR, What's a "total seal type" is it just a solid ring vs a split ring? ???
Quote from: wobble on October 07, 2008, 12:05:46 PM
Let's see if I understand this correctly. So the single ring setup gives you more power. However, it wears quickly, thus increasing the leakdown. Therefore this power will begin to drop off at a much faster rate than running dual rings? ???
It seems that most of us frequent these forums in the constant search for more power. If the single ring setup gives that, then why don't more of us use it? There are alot of us here who tear down their engines every winter anway. :lol:
Not so much as drop off at a much faster rate if you replace the rings (top and oil) before their wore out.
That's why I leak down test my engine after multi day dune trips.....if the leak down gets excessive then you know it's time to replace the rings. The single Top ring pistons are considered to be a "Race" piston
Quote from: Krandall on October 07, 2008, 12:23:09 PM
RR, What's a "total seal type" is it just a solid ring vs a split ring? ???
It's still split you just have a rail like on an oil ring that you stagger so there is no longer a gap for compression to leak by.
This is a pic of a standard total seal second ring.
(http://www.totalseal.com/Images/Ring_Home.jpg)
I will be contacting Venom soon to see about running a single "total seal type" top ring fior his pistons.
If anyone is willing to bum me a leak down tester I will share my complete and un-bias finding. I would love to find that out too. I dont have time to get one togeather. I'm working 60 hour work weeks, planning a wedding, and trying to find time to ride and get in shape for up and coming races.
Here's a link to a real reasonably priced leak down tester that you can order online. I like the dual gauge type myself .
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D900010&N=700+4294925139+4294925138+4294854847+4294854754+400304+115&autoview=sku (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D900010&N=700+4294925139+4294925138+4294854847+4294854754+400304+115&autoview=sku)
(http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/sum-900010.jpg)
If I get a wild butt hair this winter I will get that ordered up. It wont be for another month or two. Our last race is early novenber.
Does anyone see why one could'nt run a single total seal ring setup?
I'll tell ya now, I have'nt felt any noticeable power lose or ANY oil consumption..........what so ever.
I think I'll be picking one of them up. Looks like another valuable tool to have.
Quote from: preddy08 on October 07, 2008, 02:29:41 PM
If I get a wild butt hair this winter I will get that ordered up. It wont be for another month or two. Our last race is early novenber.
Does anyone see why one could'nt run a single total seal ring setup?
No reason not to that I know of :thumbs:
The total seal gapless top ring is just the natural evolution of the gapless second ring. By moving the gapless ring to the #1 ring groove it effectively seals the cylinder closer to the combustion chamber. This not only increases the cylinder seal on the compression and power stokes, but also improves the ring seal on the intake stroke resulting in better cylinder filling on a normally aspirated engine. The increased amount of force generated by the combustion process in turn delivers a greater amount of energy to the crankshaft. Either gapless top ring or 2nd ring offers superior cylinder sealing. This is from the total seal tech page as there's no way I could explain it any better in my own words.
Randy
As someone just pointed on the "other" forum, I meant to say double compression rings, not double oil rings. I hadn't yet finished drinking my pot of coffee when I posted that. :(
Quote from: RaptorRandy on October 07, 2008, 02:45:05 PM
Quote from: preddy08 on October 07, 2008, 02:29:41 PM
If I get a wild butt hair this winter I will get that ordered up. It wont be for another month or two. Our last race is early novenber.
Does anyone see why one could'nt run a single total seal ring setup?
No reason not to that I know of :thumbs:
The total seal gapless top ring is just the natural evolution of the gapless second ring. By moving the gapless ring to the #1 ring groove it effectively seals the cylinder closer to the combustion chamber. This not only increases the cylinder seal on the compression and power stokes, but also improves the ring seal on the intake stroke resulting in better cylinder filling on a normally aspirated engine. The increased amount of force generated by the combustion process in turn delivers a greater amount of energy to the crankshaft. Either gapless top ring or 2nd ring offers superior cylinder sealing. This is from the total seal tech page as there's no way I could explain it any better in my own words.
Randy
Cool thanks.
Quote from: wobble on October 07, 2008, 02:55:50 PM
As someone just pointed on the "other" forum, I meant to say double compression rings, not double oil rings. I hadn't yet finished drinking my pot of coffee when I posted that. :(
Figured that much....LOLOLOL Unless you wanted really good oil scrapers...lol
Quote from: preddy08 on October 07, 2008, 02:59:15 PM
Figured that much....LOLOLOL Unless you wanted really good oil scrapers...lol
Now I feel like an idiot! I gotta quit multitasking. :lol:
Woops, I missed this. This is a debate that still rages on in pro racing ranks. Single ring pistons have been around for 30+ years, and have never taken over, yet double rings have never shut out singles. I think it is kind of a wash. Single rings will have a higher leakdown rate, double rings will seal better with the possibility of higher friction. Single rings are usually reserved for engines that see more frequent teardowns, or are made wider to improve longevity, bringing friction back up near two ring levels. When I designed my pistons, I never seriously considered a single ring design because of how many hours guys wanna put on their quad before rebuild. Using low tension oil rings is only recommended for two ring designs. Low tension oil rings can more than make up the difference in friction. In my opinion, two compression ring pistons are the only sensible choice.
Just to show that there is no black and white answer..... Total seal gapless rings (which I use) can have a tendency to flutter at very high RPM, but when you use crankcase vacuum to stabilize this, the gapless design pays off in spades. :thumbs:
Quote from: Kenny on October 08, 2008, 08:03:27 AM
Woops, I missed this. This is a debate that still rages on in pro racing ranks. Single ring pistons have been around for 30+ years, and have never taken over, yet double rings have never shut out singles. I think it is kind of a wash. Single rings will have a higher leakdown rate, double rings will seal better with the possibility of higher friction. Single rings are usually reserved for engines that see more frequent teardowns, or are made wider to improve longevity, bringing friction back up near two ring levels. When I designed my pistons, I never seriously considered a single ring design because of how many hours guys wanna put on their quad before rebuild. Using low tension oil rings is only recommended for two ring designs. Low tension oil rings can more than make up the difference in friction. In my opinion, two compression ring pistons are the only sensible choice.
Thanks. That explanation helps.
Quote from: Kenny on October 08, 2008, 08:03:27 AM
Just to show that there is no black and white answer..... Total seal gapless rings (which I use) can have a tendency to flutter at very high RPM, but when you use crankcase vacuum to stabilize this, the gapless design pays off in spades. :thumbs:
Could you please expand on this? Gapless rings seems to be showing up alot in this thread. Is this something relatively new to the ATV community or have I just not been paying attention?
Quote from: preddy08 on October 07, 2008, 02:05:23 PM
I will be contacting Venom soon to see about running a single "total seal type" top ring fior his pistons.
If anyone is willing to bum me a leak down tester I will share my complete and un-bias finding. I would love to find that out too. I dont have time to get one togeather. I'm working 60 hour work weeks, planning a wedding, and trying to find time to ride and get in shape for up and coming races.
If you getting married, you're probalby broke too; I know I was....wait I still am :lol:
Anyway, here's a pretty cheap leak down tester. I've seen it a little cheaper when it goes on sale, but I don't remember how much cheaper.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94190
Quote from: Kenny on October 08, 2008, 08:03:27 AM
Woops, I missed this. When I designed my pistons, I never seriously considered a single ring design because of how many hours guys wanna put on their quad before rebuild. In my opinion, two compression ring pistons are the only sensible choice.
Just to show that there is no black and white answer..... Total seal gapless rings (which I use) can have a tendency to flutter at very high RPM, but when you use crankcase vacuum to stabilize this, the gapless design pays off in spades. :thumbs:
Speaking of Total Seal Gapless rings and your piston design reminds me, any word on a delivery date for those replacement rings for your "Corrected Height" 11.0:1 pistons?
Quote from: zebradog on October 08, 2008, 01:19:30 PM
Quote from: preddy08 on October 07, 2008, 02:05:23 PM
I will be contacting Venom soon to see about running a single "total seal type" top ring fior his pistons.
If anyone is willing to bum me a leak down tester I will share my complete and un-bias finding. I would love to find that out too. I dont have time to get one togeather. I'm working 60 hour work weeks, planning a wedding, and trying to find time to ride and get in shape for up and coming races.
If you getting married, you're probalby broke too; I know I was....wait I still am :lol:
Anyway, here's a pretty cheap leak down tester. I've seen it a little cheaper when it goes on sale, but I don't remember how much cheaper.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94190
John.....that kit is cheaply made and not long lasting IMHO......my buddy got one and the gauges and regulator turned to shit after he used it a few times. Now the cheap bastage keeps borrowing mine ::)
You get what you pay for and tools are a lifetime investment....at least IMO they are.
Randy
I don't like stale tools Randy, I like to keep 'em fresh with new ones :lol:
I was about to buy one for myself, maybe I'll rethink that...
Buy a good one John. Then I will just use yours! :lol:
Quote from: wobble on October 08, 2008, 03:23:29 PM
Buy a good one John. Then I will just use yours! :lol:
Oh yah, I'll get right on that...
Total seal rings are pretty new in the ATV world because of expense. The top rings alone account for $30 of my piston prices. I like them for longevity. Even high-end engine builders can't seem to agree on their virtues. They work well in this application, so I use 'em. 8)
Quote from: Kenny on October 08, 2008, 04:56:05 PM
Total seal rings are pretty new in the ATV world because of expense. The top rings alone account for $30 of my piston prices. I like them for longevity. Even high-end engine builders can't seem to agree on their virtues. They work well in this application, so I use 'em. 8)
They sure have worked good for me in every type of application I have ever run them in :thumbs:
If total seal rings seal so well, then why run a 2-ring setup? Would a single "total seal" ring do the job?
Nevermind. I just re-read Kenny's post. Running a single "total seal" would wear quicker than a dual ring setup.