Union discussion

[Peelz]

I wont pick on Temptation anymore for his truck, I've done that enough.

But if you want to rest the blame on the problem with the american auto industry...put it where it belongs....the UAW.  Pay some guy 45+ an hour to push a broom.  WTF?!?  And we complain that the companies are moving over seas....shocker there.

Exactly what I said a page back. Pay people too much, no money left for R&D, therefore you make substandard vehicles........sad but true

[Mad Dog]

I wont pick on Temptation anymore for his "truck", I've done that enough.

But if you want to rest the blame on the problem with the american auto industry...put it where it belongs....the UAW.  Pay some guy 45+ an hour to push a broom.  WTF?!?  And we complain that the companies are moving over seas....shocker there.

And without the unions they would be underpaid and over worked and the quality would suffer...oh wait that's what's happening now with the $14/hour workers that have taken the place of the union buyouts and the cars are terrible.  And no it's not just the result of R&D budgets being low, there are plenty of white collar workers getting paid too much to push paper and executives getting extravagant bonuses.  The guys at the top allotting the budgets are as much if not more of a problem then an overpaid blue collar workforce.

There's a happy medium, we passed it long ago and now the damage is done and it's too late to go back.  UAW was greedy and the big 3 were complacent to grant the demands.  Those working in the industry are in tough times on both sides (blue/white), it's a time to work together not against each other.

For those of you high on the "buy american" hog, take a look in your closet, your kitchen, your computer and living rooms, and the like.  When's the last time you visited a Wal-mart or other cut price superstore full of foreign goods?  Just because you bought an American car (possibly built in another country and certainly built with foreign parts) doesn't give you a patriotic free pass on accountability.  Too many of our products are inferior to foreign products, and the ones that aren't are sometimes much more expensive.  Neither our products nor our prices are competitive in many industries so it's no wonder that our companies don't stay in business or need to cut costs to stay afloat.

[socalrappy700]

I wont pick on Temptation anymore for his "truck", I've done that enough.

But if you want to rest the blame on the problem with the american auto industry...put it where it belongs....the UAW.  Pay some guy 45+ an hour to push a broom.  WTF?!?  And we complain that the companies are moving over seas....shocker there.

And without the unions they would be underpaid and over worked and the quality would suffer...oh wait that's what's happening now with the $14/hour workers that have taken the place of the union buyouts and the cars are terrible.  And no it's not just the result of R&D budgets being low, there are plenty of white collar workers getting paid too much to push paper and executives getting extravagant bonuses.  The guys at the top allotting the budgets are as much if not more of a problem then an overpaid blue collar workforce.

There's a happy medium, we passed it long ago and now the damage is done and it's too late to go back.  UAW was greedy and the big 3 were complacent to grant the demands.  Those working in the industry are in tough times on both sides (blue/white), it's a time to work together not against each other.

For those of you high on the "buy american" hog, take a look in your closet, your kitchen, your computer and living rooms, and the like.  When's the last time you visited a Wal-mart or other cut price superstore full of foreign goods?  Just because you bought an American car (possibly built in another country and certainly built with foreign parts) doesn't give you a patriotic free pass on accountability.  Too many of our products are inferior to foreign products, and the ones that aren't are sometimes much more expensive.  Neither our products nor our prices are competitive in many industries so it's no wonder that our companies don't stay in business or need to cut costs to stay afloat.

Yeah there have been buy outs and some of the jobs may be paying as low as $14/hour, but I'm sure that is what those jobs are worth, that is perfect pay for the guy taking out the trash at a plant in Michigan...not the $40+ he's getting right now.  There is no way in todays modern society that we would see the same problems that lead to the creation of the union.  And you say that quality would suffer?  Some of the foreign auto makers that have set up shops here without the UAW have held a very high standard of quality.  I agree that there are quite a few white collar workers also being paid too much but they can't match the vast numbers of over paid UAW members.  Yes the executives bonuses have gotten out of control, but again, this can not match the problem with the UAW.  The big three needs to look to its competition building cars state side as their business model, but for now there isn't anything they can do. 

[Peelz]

excellent post socal

quality could suffer now, because it got out of control, people would feel slighted for making less. $14 is an excellent wage for entry-level positions. Quality actually suffered because too much money was spent on wages, not making great cars.

[socalrappy700]

I see a phase out as a better idea.  I agree that an employee making clear of $50 an hour being pulled back down to where he should be in the $28-36/hour range would just become bitter.  One would hope that he would understand its that or his job may not be around much longer.  But like MD said, both sides need to work together on this one. 

[Peelz]

Man I never thought when i posted this up that this would turn into such a wage concern, man I learned my lesson, I know longer post my personal goods that will cause contreversy..Damn

we like controversy    

Ok I am done, I hope you are not offended Temp.

[Colorado700R]

Man I never thought when i posted this up that this would turn into such a wage concern, man I learned my lesson, I know longer post my personal goods that will cause contreversy..Damn

It's just good conversation IMO T.

But back on topic, I'm glad your happy with your truck, that's all that matters  

[socalrappy700]

I do not see any controversy, just good conversation.  But I think you can claim your car is as American as one of the big three.  Plus it works for what you want....not what someone else wants.

[Mad Dog]

Yeah there have been buy outs and some of the jobs may be paying as low as $14/hour, but I'm sure that is what those jobs are worth, that is perfect pay for the guy taking out the trash at a plant in Michigan...not the $40+ he's getting right now.

The guys doing the quality control testing at Delphi start at just over 14 dollars an hour...not the janitors.  Like I said, happy medium and right now we've got both extremes with little middle ground.

There is no way in todays modern society that we would see the same problems that lead to the creation of the union.

Because the unions forced those conditions to improve.  This day in age there are still sweat shops throughout the third world and deplorable conditions in manufacturing.  There is no union presence in most of these areas and the conditions show it.  Trash them all you want, they were a great social step forward in our history and that state of society you're referring to is a direct result.

And you say that quality would suffer?  Some of the foreign auto makers that have set up shops here without the UAW have held a very high standard of quality.

Toyota has had major recalls on 5-7 of it's vehicles over each of the last 3 years.  including vital suspension and steering components for the full size pickups/suvs and the prop shaft on the tacoma. 

I agree that there are quite a few white collar workers also being paid too much but they can't match the vast numbers of over paid UAW members.  Yes the executives bonuses have gotten out of control, but again, this can not match the problem with the UAW.

As a whole the UAW has been a bigger drain, but that's because the company was just that large.  They didn't react to the markets and didn't reduce outputs and reduce labor force until it was causing serious monetary losses.  The unions past their peak decades ago, things could have been done sooner and it could have lessened the severity.  In any case I firmly believe that the higher cost per person of redundant white collar jobs and giving Delphi's head guy a few dozen million to drive them further into bankruptcy should be spoken in the same breath with the tired "overpaid UAW" cliche.

The big three needs to look to its competition building cars state side as their business model, but for now there isn't anything they can do.

Their competition state side isn't without it's problems.  Nissan's trucks aren't profitable hence tapping chrysler for the next round.  Toyota has vast over supply problems and to keep their employees and plants running they're going to export the trucks they make here along with the quality control issues listed above.  The reality is that save for a collapse of a member of the big 3 or the UAW itself the US companies won't have the same options for labor that Nissan and Toyota do, so they've got to make the best of what they've got in front of them.

[vern burny]

From my experiance working with a union is like any other business (yes I see a union as a business).  When they are run by and led by smart people with the product (skilled work force) in mind they are usually the better option and have the employee in mind.  If allowed to achieve a monopoly like in the automotive world costs for the service gets unreasonable.

But since this is supposed to be about Temps new truck,

I like it 

I listened when I was told to buy a crew cab and everyone was right, I will never go back.  If only my garage could fit a crew cab with a longer box.  My raptor fits in the back of the silverado with the tailgate up, but only because my tires have about 20% tread.

[Mad Dog]

Chicago boy derails the thread but his post stays in the old one 


I see how it is now :'(

[socalrappy700]

Did I miss one of mine?  I thought I got all the ones from the last few days.  Sorry about that. 

[Mad Dog]

Guess it was pretty clear to me that the post peels quoted should have been moved as well, but I understand you wanted to keep your jab in there without any opposition.  Very sneaky

[socalrappy700]

No, first time using the split topic option.  Wasn't sure I was doing it right.  I thought I went all the way back to my post.

[FoundArealQuad]

Union jobs help and hurt. They make it almost impossible to get rid of someone that is not pulling his or her share of work. They do indeed help the worker that is pulling their fair share of work though. I think that affirmative action also has hindered our automakers and our economy. The other problem is that US auto manufactures are failing to put out a product that people want. If gas prices skyrocket do you think people want a Suburban, Expedition or a H2. I think the US auto product forecasters have also been dropping the ball in what people want.
As for buying an American car there is no such thing anymore. I know Kia is opening a huge plant 30 mile from where I live and most of the parts are made within 20 miles of the plant. I know most of the parts in my Dodge truck are made in Mexico and the truck is assembled in Canada WTF. I don't think the Government should bail out the US automakers I think the US automakers should bail themselves out by making a better product.

My best friend has a 2006 Mustang GT that has been to the shop 18 times now and the rear axle was rebuilt twice and replaced once and has had a ton more problems then that. I will not buy another American car and if Toyota or Nissan would have offered a 2500 diesel that's what I would be driving right now.